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Placing Finnish immigration policy on an effective path

August 28, 2008

I never thought that a few posts trying to look at such an issue like discrimination in Finland could inflame debate. If anything, it shows that there is a problem in this area. I have lived long enough in Finland and studied its culture since a child to know the challenges facing this country.

If Finland is to overcome this challenge and wants to put into force a dynamic immigration/integration policy, I believe it will have to look elsewhere.

A good source are the Finns that have immigrated abroad. They can give insightful information to authorities on what matters need to work in a society for the country to reap the benefits from its new inhabitants.

Unfortunately, Finland’s immigration policy in the past has been guided essentially by one factor: how do we hinder people from coming to the country. This, of course, changed when Finland became a EU member in 1995. Things are changing but I am not holding my breath until I start to see changes.

Where should the changes come? Employment, employment and employment. It is disgraceful for a country like Finland to have on average 20% unemployment among foreigners and over 50% among some national groups. How are these people supposed to “integrate” if they cannot even get work? If the country cannot employ these people, why even bother bringing them here? Even unemployment figures for the whole country (about 7%) leave a lot to be desired and reveal a wider problem.

Certainly some may claim that high unemployment among foreigners may be these people’s fault. Yes, there may be some truth in that, but a 20% jobless figure reveals a big problem. It is easier to pay unemployment/social welfare than to confront the issue and grab it by the horns. One of the biggest challenges in this area is job discrimination.

There are some parties such as the Swedish Folk Party that want to change the situation. It is never too late to start.

I once asked a long time ago a former Social Democrat MP why that person was not more outspoken on racism. The person’s response was quite incredible: “I am afraid about a public backlash.” The fear of anti-foreign sentiment was so strong at the time that the politician thought it was better to leave the issue alone.

That kind of leadership reveals why change has been slow in Finland.

But we should ask ourselves a simple question: Why do we want change and why should public officials be more outspoken against discrimination?

The answer is simple: If we allow discrimination to get the upper hand of things, then the biggest loser will be Finland.

121 Comments leave one →
  1. Onkko permalink
    August 29, 2008 1:47 am

    Discrimination?
    To get job first thing is do you have needed skills? if yes then…
    Do you speak finnish like all others in workplace?
    That isnt discrimination.
    You need fluent/decent finnish in most workplaces.
    Only works what are in dire need of workers accept someone who dont speak finnish because there is almost always some finn with same skills coming.
    In some professions not knowing finnish is deadly.
    My uncle who dont really speak languages, only basic english, hired bulgarian(not sure about from where he was so i just pick bulgaria, it didnt matter to me) who spoke well enough finnish and was good on his hands. If that bulgarian couldnt speak finnish then no work for him.
    Ill say language is mostly cause of unemployment, and as you know if someone gets finnish citizenship he isnt on those statistics anymore.

  2. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    August 29, 2008 6:36 am

    – A good source are the Finns that have immigrated abroad. They can give insightful information to authorities on what matters need to work in a society for the country to reap the benefits from its new inhabitants.

    Yes, for example the Finns who went to work at Volvo in Göteborg and other places. They were put to work in crap jobs until they learned Swedish. The kids were – unlike in Finland – educated in Swedish only. Now I could ask my cousins what their examples are, but I can’t understand half of their accent.

    – Where should the changes come? Employment, employment and employment
    – .Even unemployment figures for the whole country (about 7%) leave a lot to be desired and reveal a wider problem.

    EXACTLY, now you are finally hitting the nail on the head. We need more jobs. But exactly where do we get these new jobs in? This is the answer I want you to tell me. Which industry or public sectors? Where is the growth potential in these?

    – If the country cannot employ these people, why even bother bringing them here?

    Oh, so now we are *bringing* them here? Yeah, Finnish ships just hit other nations’ shores, kidnap people and bring them here in chains against their own will. Enrique – these people came here of their own free will. It is their own wish to be in Finland. Nobody forced them.

    I agree to a point – what is the idea of allowing mass immigration of unskilled people when it is the skilled people that the industry requires.

    The only unskilled labor force that would readily be accepted is the crap jobs in the service sector – and for service sector there is a skill even my cousins – the returning Finns remember – would face. The Finnish language. So for those groups to find employment they need to crash-integrate.

    – It is easier to pay unemployment/social welfare than to confront the issue and grab it by the horns.

    But thats what “multiculturalism” demands. You are telling these people they can sit on their ass and not learn the language and scream “racism” at every turn. You are the problem – do you have horns?

    – One of the biggest challenges in this area is job discrimination.

    I don’t see the foreign bus drivers in Helsinki Traffic getting higher or lower salaries regarding their ethnicity or nationality. Now if my cousin and I go apply for a job there at the bus depot we will be discriminated against. He doesn’t speak Finnish and I don’t have a drivers licence for a bus. So what can we do? According to you we should cry “racism” and sit on our asses in a multiculturalist environment instead of him going to a Finnish class and me going to driving school?

    The problem with this discrimination walks hand-in-hand with the economy and social class. Now your working class Finn doesn’t necessarily speak foreign languages and then he lives in a cheap neighbourhood. What he gets as his immigrant neighbours aren’t your cosmopolitan brain-surgeons either. So there is a problem to start with there. You are trying to make two junttis to work together. In more educated circles theres more chance of communication – the trades people know their welding and beer and ice hockey. Now if the immigrant knows welding and ice tea and trot racing theres not much to talk about either? Give this a little “think” and ask yourself what is the problem? The politician is not so stupid as to go pressing two opposing magnets together by force.

  3. Enrique permalink
    August 29, 2008 6:39 am

    Certainly language is a factor. Let me give you an example. In Spain, you have Latin Americans who speak Spanish as their mother tongue, are Catholics, and know Spanish culture. Still, many suffer from job discrimination.
    However, why does Finland bring people from abroad if they cannot get a job? Certainly many of them have a command of Finnish. I said that job discrimination was one factor out of many. Twenty percent unemployment is unacceptable. Both foreigners and Finns should work this matter out. Moreover, 7% unemployment is too high for a country that has been growing on average by 3%.

  4. Enrique permalink
    August 29, 2008 6:46 am

    My point about the Finnish immigrants is that from their experiences abroad, they could enlighten Finnish social policy officials on what needs to be done to integrate people in work. You forget that that foreigners that come create service jobs. To give you an example: An Argentinian who moved to Los Angeles founded an Argentinian market. In order for these people to travel to their home countries, he founded a travel agency. And, on top of that, he opened a restaurant that served Argentinian food. He became a rich man and worked his behind. He did not sit on his ass. So, as you can see, foreigners create jobs and services. Probably Helsinki is ahead in hiring foreigners than other parts of Finland. But you would agree that one of the problems is the Finnish labor market. It is very inflexible. Seven percent unemployment is way too high for a country that has been growing at an average of 3%, higher than the EU average.

  5. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    August 29, 2008 6:53 am

    See now Enrique we do not want a discriminatory labour market like in some other countries where theres a two-tier system of people. Like in the USA where you have those who have English and those that “no habla”. The USA has enough population to be able to use these kind of people, but its economic prionciples are based on market capitalism and exploitation. Then theres also the foreigners themselves who start businesses and bring their non-speaking countrymen over and pay them “home wages”. Also these people are under the radar and as they cannot understand the system let alone ask anyone they’re doubly jeopardized. You seem to condone this kind of exploitation, but unfortunately I do not wish to see this happening in Finland any more as it does already. Therefore what the government needs to do is put money in education. More courses for example for people to learn the system, their rights, enough Finnish to get by. They already organize these kind of shelter jobs, but most of the time those are a joke. And theres not enough effort in the training of Finnish.

    Most discrimination happens when you have people you do not understand and who does things in a different way. If you cannot communicate you cannot say the different way is “wrong” and its done the other way. So that is why the language is important – the communication. Of course basic English works the same. It is then the immigrants own problem to figure out why his way is “wrong” because here everything is done in a different way as to what he is used to. Without communication and instead screaming “racism” there can be no evaluation if the different ways actually can be put together to make a new way.

  6. Enrique permalink
    August 29, 2008 6:55 am

    But why do you generalize that all immigrants cannot speak Finnish? Many are well educated and have a good command of the language.
    And about the United States… There is a huge market for illegal immigrants because industry needs them. Imagine, they leave their homes in Mexico, for example, risk in many cases their lives to live better. And, even if they are paid low wages, it is still worth it. Apart from the subsidies that the United States gives to their agriculture sector, imagine the subsidy these illegal aliens offer to society. Pretty incredible, no? My point about illegal immigration is that in first place we should punish those companies that hire these people and the criminal gangs that exploit them by brining them across the border. Europe should be like a Switzerland. Surrounded by safe countries where people have an opportunity to progress. Can you really blame a Mexican who cannot feed his family and wants to make money albeit little compared to our standards? Did you know that the money that illegal and legal immigrants send to Mexico amounts to $25 billion annually? They send the money to their families and they can then buy services in their home country. After oil revenues, this is the second biggest source of money in the Mexican economy.
    Finland has a good system but when it comes to employment and taxation, it is not very conducive. There is a two-tier system in Finland at present: those with permanent jobs and those who are not permanently employed. Probably Finland can learn from the high unemployment of foreigners to make its labor system more open to hiring people. But this is a very sensitive political issue in Finland at the moment as you know. It will probably change. Kokomus has some ideas on this.

  7. Tiwaz permalink
    August 29, 2008 7:04 am

    Except this is not Spain. This is Finland. Why the hell you want to compare two totally different societies?

    I will explain once more… Spain is not Finland.

    And by the way, you again fail to grasp that not only is language important, but culture too. You have to be able to behave properly. If your behavior is in local norms considered abnormal or flat out rude… You are not hired. Learn to behave! Employers do not hire rude people.

    By the way, where does Finland bring in immigrants? It is immigrants who want to come to Finland. Not Finland dragging them in. Or do we mentally dominate them and force them to come to Finland?

    And we know what is needed to integrate people. Integration. It is not something we natives can just pour into immigrants, immigrant has to do it himself. I can’t integrate you no matter how much I want to. YOU have to want to integrate, YOU have to work to learn the language and culture.

    You again try to pretend that immigrant has no responsibility for what takes place with them.

    We can ask those Finns, or offspring of Finns (who are NOT Finns by the way, it takes more than genetics you see) what they did. Answer is… They integrated, and how? Well, by doing the legwork! Language, culture…

    And what you fail to notice in your example of filthy rich Argentinian is all those dozens who did NOT become filthy rich. Some of which filtered into street gangs and became problems of society.

    20% immigrant unemployment is not unacceptable. What is unacceptable is that immigrants demand jobs without CREDENTIALS.

    If you can’t do the job, you are not hired! And most immigrants are not viable for huge amount of jobs. Do you think Finland needs for example service workers who can’t serve their clients because they do not know how to communicate?
    Or do you think that being immigrant makes you automagically competent for any task?

    I studied through schools for years, almost 20, to get to point where I am competent to do my job, though admittably large portion was basic education.

    Guy off the streets has no competence. Even Finn who is dragged off the street has most likely no competence or papers to do my job.

    So how does foreigner who possibly does not even have certificates recognised in Finland have competence?

  8. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    August 29, 2008 7:10 am

    – Certainly language is a factor. Let me give you an example. In Spain, you have Latin Americans who speak Spanish as their mother tongue, are Catholics, and know Spanish culture. Still, many suffer from job discrimination.

    Yes. So then how many foreigners who speak Finnish, are Lutherans and know Finnish culture you think we get in yearly? Are they discriminated against? So what exactly do the Finns have as a problem??? I think your example shows the Spaniards are having a bigger problem with discrimination than the Finns.

    – Moreover, 7% unemployment is too high for a country that has been growing on average by 3%.

    They’re saying that the figures dropped now to 5% – but the growth is stagnated.

    – Argentinian who moved to Los Angeles

    Yes, one of my great-uncles moved to USA and invented gold too. Starting a business in Finland is totally different. The tax office just foreclosed one of my foreigner friends business… he’d been at the best times been employing several people. Why yes, lets put all the foreigners open a shop in Nuorgam. How about that – any more bright ideas? There needs to be people with purchase power for the businesses to thrive. And we all know that in Finland people have a very low purchase power and high prices. Then again you look at Estonia with their inflation the past 2-3 years and I’m not complaining at all.

    – But you would agree that one of the problems is the Finnish labor market. It is very inflexible.
    I think *that* is one of the *main* problem issues you should be tackling when talking with those corrupted politicians. Thats the real cause of things (along with a few others) that causes the vicious circle of unemployment and hard to get a job and effects then the discrimination as the employers want the cream off the top at the price of milk. Now if we had a different economic situation with a drive and we *then* has discrimination and racism then would be the time to bring forth these issues. The situation right now makes it look as we’re trying to plant flowers on a manure reservoir and claiming it won’t stink if it looks pretty.

  9. Enrique permalink
    August 29, 2008 7:12 am

    Spain and Finland are EU countries. They are European societies — so they are not completely different. Every modern society has foreigners. They come for a variety of reasons: work, family and cultural ties as well as to study. How do you integrate people if they have no work and Finnish society is just learning to live with diverse cultures from all over the world?
    Argentinian gangs in Finland? I don’t think so.
    How do you know what these foreigners’ qualifications are? Many are well educated, have professions, and speak Finnish.
    What surprises me is that you don’t even ask tough questions about the Finnish labor market. It is too inflexible.
    Good for you if you were able to progress professionally. I have too.
    Finland has to offer the opportunities for him to be qualified, just like any Finn. Like I said before, a society must offer opportunities to advance. It’s pretty dumb for a person to move to a country and end up poorer than where he came from.

  10. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    August 29, 2008 7:13 am

    – But why do you generalize that all immigrants cannot speak Finnish? Many are well educated and have a good command of the language.

    But why do you generalize all these immigrants 20% unemployed are well educated and have a good command of the language? I think your well educated and have a good command of the language immigrants are in the 80%,

    – Finland has a good system but when it comes to employment and taxation, it is not very conducive. There is a two-tier system in Finland at present: those with permanent jobs and those who are not permanently employed. Probably Finland can learn from the high unemployment of foreigners to make its labor system more open to hiring people. But this is a very sensitive political issue in Finland at the moment as you know. It will probably change. Kokomus has some ideas on this.

    You’re hitting the nail on the head again. There is the *problem* right there.

  11. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    August 29, 2008 7:16 am

    – Finland has to offer the opportunities for him to be qualified, just like any Finn.

    But we do – education is free.

  12. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    August 29, 2008 7:21 am

    – Argentinian gangs in Finland? I don’t think so.

    OK, not Argentinian gangs but you could say Russian. Then Tiwaz’s example would work. Theres a few rich that hit it off and a few that ended up in street gangs…

    BTW regarding the Mexicans in the USA . OK, not the best of news sources, but
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,409221,00.html

    Interesting point in how difficult it is to re-integrate “back”… even if you live in a “multicultural” environment.

  13. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    August 29, 2008 7:27 am

    – What surprises me is that you don’t even ask tough questions about the Finnish labor market. It is too inflexible.

    What is there to ask? We *know* what it is like. However you apparently think that it is not a problem but some imaginatory “discrimination”. By reading your blog the immigrant thinks the problem in Finland he doesn’t get a job is racism – when the real problem is the job market itself, discrimination is just a bit of extra frosting on the cake.

  14. Tiwaz permalink
    August 29, 2008 7:37 am

    Spain and Finland are in EU, but that does not make them anything alike.

    They share some similarities, mainly due to religious influence in culture.

    But overall… Totally different.

    The most infamous example being concept of time.
    Spanish having it flexible, Finn seeing agreed time as absolute.
    Body language.

    Finnish and Spanish societies are nothing alike. EU doesn’t somehow magically bring cultures together.

  15. Enrique permalink
    August 29, 2008 9:19 am

    OK, let’s say there is a mix of foreigners that are highly qualified and other that are not. Job discrimination is one of the problems.
    Tiwaz, you are generalizing again. I believe that Spanish export companies understand different cultures’ concept of time. In Spain people arrive on time because they know, among friends, they may come late. But this is not general rule. There are all types.
    Spain and Finland are countries with the same values because they are EU members.

  16. Enrique permalink
    August 29, 2008 9:39 am

    DeTant, since we agree on the same matter, could you give us some insights on how the Finnish labor market could change in order to employ more people. I’m certain there isn’t any quick fix but I’d be interested in hearing your point of view.
    As with creating jobs, one way to do it is to bring more investment to Finland. This is, as you know, easier said than done. But that is how many countries do it in order to increase jobs.

  17. Tiwaz permalink
    August 29, 2008 10:12 am

    They are examples Enrique, of course not all spanish are late, of course all finns are not in time.

    But cultural perception on what is acceptable or expectable is different. Spanish and Finnish view on how to handle agreed time, in cultural perspective, is very different. This is because they are, shock and horror, completely different cultures.

    And Spain and Finland do not indeed have same values. Again you presume too much. I think it might be your lack of roots. You do not have grounded feel for the society, instead you watch them from outside (regardless of your passport) and fail to see how things are different. It’s kind of like comment “all chinese look the same” you sometimes hear for example in popular culture and which holds some truth. This is due to persons blindness to more subtle differences which are obvious to natives.

    You again speak of job discrimination. Is it discrimination to expect same things from immigrant as you would expect from Finn?

    Because THAT is the problem of immigrants. They do not understand how to behave. Employer can’t necessarily risk hiring unadjusted immigrant. If that guy, with his foreign habits, always gets on nerves of his colleagues… It is bad for company. And no, understanding is not “solution”. It does not matter how much I would understand that behaving rudely/disturbing my peace is part of your culture, it still annoys the hell out of me.

  18. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    August 29, 2008 10:45 am

    – DeTant, since we agree on the same matter, could you give us some insights on how the Finnish labor market could change in order to employ more people. I’m certain there isn’t any quick fix but I’d be interested in hearing your point of view.

    Ah, this is such a can of worms. Lets look at the present situation and how we got there. The main footing is still paper & pulp industry. However globalization makes the companies not look at the benefit for Finland but benefit for their business. So the factories close. That can’t be helped. The heavy manufacturing industry has changed from competing with volume, but special equipment and quality… globalization bites, as the cost structure in Finland is high. Industries such as textiles left a long time ago… Smallhold farming died in the 1970’s and the EU is slowly killing the rest. OK, so this means we have very little manpower-requiring industries. Some basic industries requiring speciality workforce like mining and forestry pop up.. they can’t be outsourced. Then we get to the production development, hi-tech and biotechnology. The problem with thet is to find enough money and then be able to take benefit of the research. This is a problem – even they invent something they cannot half the time get it into production so that the product could compete in the international market.

    So, even concentrating on the things that are feasible to pursue, the problem is twofold: the cost of production in Finland is too expensive and the globalization has caused the businesses to not be beneficial to Finland but to the owners pockets.

    And there isn’t really an answer. To take down the costs would require a massive restructuring and scrapping of the Nordic Welfare State “as we know it”. What might work is the “Celtic Tiger” model how Ireland switched from a very similar situation to an economic boom. What we could tap on the market is Russia – but that also gives huge risks.

    OK, so for some people of course theres things to try and develop… like the nature and so forth, but for so long as dry cleaning for a suit in Finland is 30 euros and somewhere else 10 – it isn’t the “cheap prices” that will attract tourists. And theres similar forests all across the tundra.

    So no, I don’t have a patent answer to those problems. The only thing I know is the solution isn’t to bring more immigrants here – Either they cause the too expensive resident to be unemployed or then are abused and exploited. The answer is to create jobs. And with the current economically hostile environment against running a business these immigrants who create jobs are few and far between. Running a business is fine as long as there are people with purchase power… Egg & Chicken.

  19. Enrique permalink
    August 29, 2008 11:52 am

    Tiwaz, stop making value judgments on me. There is no such thing as national character. Cultures are too complex to classify in clean categories: eg. Spaniards are late, Finns drink etc… These are stereotypes. A good example of a Finnish stereotype is that the Hämaläinens are slow, with other groups are so and so. Stereotypes are myths. Show me one empirical study that highlights the national character of Finns or the Spaniards. The only perceptions we have are subjective and they are mere personal interpretations. Like there are Spaniards who dislike bullfighting there are Finns who don’t like the sauna. By values I meant EU values that abide both nations to adopt certain common social postures. Possibly, that explanation on national character could revolutionize your view of the Finnish culture and of others.

  20. Enrique permalink
    August 29, 2008 12:13 pm

    Yes, it is a difficult subject. But you know that economics is never a complex matter. It is only made complex (reading financial reports) to hide things that should be obvious. You have to watch out for those red herrings.
    There are many misconceptions about immigrants and their roles in Finland. I understand it may be difficult for a country that has never had immigrants in great numbers to deal with the issue. Immigrants are the basis of growth of many economies. They are not, like some claim, the source or racial strife and destruction of the majority culture.
    We have got to paying 30 euros a suit (in Madrid I can get my pants pressed for 4 euros from an old Spanish couple) because of high taxes, labor costs and possibly lack of competition. Finns are loyal consumers as well. This all brings big challenges facing Finland. How will we continue to finance it? How long can we pay high wages at the cost of losing competitiveness? Is the Finnish labor market going to allow greater competition? Can immigrants compete with salary? These are all big questions.
    Here is one link that differs from your point of view. Even though it talks about the United States, it does not mean the same could not apply to Finland. The document was presented by the AFL-CIO, the SAK of the United States. They if anybody, are interested in making sure that Americans do not lose jobs to immigrants:
    http://www.floc.com/documents/IRContributions.pdf

  21. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    August 29, 2008 1:27 pm

    – Immigrants are the basis of growth of many economies. They are not, like some claim, the source or racial strife and destruction of the majority culture.

    Well that is where we disagree. You contradict yourself all the time. *If* you say on the one hand, “immigrants create jobs” then what are you presenting as the outcome – “immigrants have 20% unemployment”. See now thats your problem you generalize them all as ggood and I generalize them back as bad so maybe we have a balance. Theres 80% employed and maybe 20% creating new jobs. But nobody has a job to “give” have they?

    – They are not, like some claim, the source or racial strife and destruction of the majority culture.

    Well we have empirical studies called history books to prove otherwise.

    I think both you and me agree this idea if we dropped 100 000 people from the mixup of languages at the tower of babylon into Turku would not create anything but a huge mess. The economy does not need just anybody. They have a skillset requirement and for that you need skills. Nobody cares if the person with the skills is a Finn or a foreigner. Your idea of immigrants creating jobs is similar if I suggested we make all the unemployed people in Finland move to Nuorgam. What will they “create” there?

    – How long can we afford to pay high wages?

    Erm… the wages in Finland are nothing “high”. You said:

    – It’s pretty dumb for a person to move to a country and end up poorer than where he came from.

    – Well it is only someone stupid – to move to Finland and imagine becoming rich with honest work? Even the horses will laugh. if I wanted to be rich, I’d moved to leech on somewhere like the Arab Emirates or USA to get enough money to then actually afford to live in Finland. OK, so maybe someone from a poorer and less developed society will find the standard of living higher. But as to being “rich” most of our Indian coders are laughing at our tiny houses and the absense of servants…”you mean you cook at home your own meals?” – except after when they see the prices for eating out. No, I don’t think anyone moves to Finland to be “rich”… I think people move to Finland for the pure nature, the egalitarian society, safety and security and those other things that make Finland the country it is. So yes – I do agree theres a few stupid foreigners who think they will come rich but they get bitten by reality. The salary might be 3x to what it is at home but then are the costs. The other Nordic countries aren’t as much different – but you get less under the line in Finland in some cases.

  22. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    August 29, 2008 1:29 pm

    – the SAK of the United States.

    Remember when SAK shot into its own leg with demanding the “new EU states” to have the work permits? Total fiasco. Instead of controlling the immigrant labour the system permitted uncontrolled use of immigrant labour. Guess they learned from that one.

  23. Enrique permalink
    August 29, 2008 1:35 pm

    When you get a chance, take a look at the link and tell me what you think.

  24. Enrique permalink
    August 29, 2008 1:41 pm

    Yes, the labor market is a big problem. There are countries where you can become richer faster. That must be the conflict that some Finns feel: they join the globalized world and have to play by the same rules. It is a bit like Etelä-Savo. Idyllic in summer. A hub for Finns from the south who spend their summer holidays. For the “tourists,” they’d like to keep the region the way it is. However, unemployment, the need to attract investment and spur growth mean that it has to change. Jobs have to be created, growth etc. Life changes. I too remember that Finland when I was young but things have changed dramatically from those days.

  25. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    August 29, 2008 1:45 pm

    – Like there are Spaniards who dislike bullfighting there are Finns who don’t like the sauna.

    Enrique – I think you are being obtuse.

    Or how do you explain all these books for businessmen explaining the etiquette in different countries? What is this etiquette other than “national character”? Is it not a stereotype that you are expected to wear black socks with a suit? And is it just my imagination when I go see the airport longe the 10 businessmen there the 5 speaking Finnish have white tennis socks? What is that then except… national character or stereotype?

    I have a stereotype that jews do not eat pork. I also have a stereotype that muslims do not drink alcohol. So despite the fact that there might be a jew chomping on a ham sandwich and a muslim drinking arrack… that doesn’t deny that the stereotype or national character or whatever it is you want to call it is safer to assume in the majority of the cases.

    So if we have a Spaniard and a Finn it would be statistically more probable that the Spaniard would be in favor to go watch a corrida and the Finn would be yearning for a sauna. Even if these things you claim do not exist.

    So I don’t understand, really, why we need to have these etiquette guides then – I’ll invite the jew and muslim to a dinner with ham and kossusnapsi then. As we do not have any national characters and stereotypes. Lets see how much “multiculturalism” they will go with.

  26. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    August 29, 2008 2:02 pm

    Yes – now that is the USA which has a hugely different economy. The problem is the Finnish economy doesn’t work that way… I don’t know if it ever will.

    On your Etelä-Savo example I agree totally. You can’t bottle up your idyll. Actually that is one problem people that have been emigrants face when they “move back home”… they have the imagination the country they left is as they left it back in 1974 bottled in a vacoom. Theres many cases they then pack up and move “back to home” where they actually lived all their life as the reality is they’ve changed and their “old home” changed while they were gone.

    I think you and I agree both that the jump from 1970’s 1980’s Finland to the 2000’s Finland is a huge one? I still think if I was given a time machine leap from 1998 Finland to 2008 Finland I’d have a shock, but from 1988 finland to 2008 Finland I’d be ashes to ashes… did you watch “life on mars”? I think Finland has changed in leaps and bounds as well. And it will continue to change. But I don’t think we can rush the change. Things change once they gain momentum, but its also futile to stop the train by standing in front of it, you need to try and coax the train on a different track…

    The labor market & attitudes have changed dramatically in the last 5 years already. Unlike you might imagine I happen to work with immigrants and I’ve seen first hand all the BS given by the bureaucracy and officials and the uselessness of MOL. You might actually want to deal with the s*t on the street level as should the corrupt politicians. See now those immigrants who have the skills and willingness to adapt find success – before you had to give the employers guarantees – a word isn’t useless these days either in some cases. but if you have someone without skills or with a bad attitude of “give” and “its my right” – those guys crash and burn.

    But I say this its night and day difference. Its so easy to get a foreigner through the hoops getting all the numbers and tax cards and ban accounts… I had a Nigerian student who borrowed my couch who got it done in 2 days, including arranging his HOAS flat and an evening job in 2 weeks… so it *can* be done by someone who has the right attitude. (And he met with the right people who could coach a bit with the offices). So I can’t understand what the problem with discrimination is – except I discriminate against people who demand and want everything on a platter instead of such who ask nicely and strive towards their goal.

  27. Enrique permalink
    August 29, 2008 4:10 pm

    There is nothing obtuse about my remark. All those book on etiquette are on etiquette — they are not on national culture. What you are talking about are cultural habits not national character. Did I say they don’t exist? I said that there is no such thing as national character. Show me a scientific study on the subject. When the Japanese attacked the US in the Second World War, the army contracted anthropologists such as Margaret Mead to bring a study on national character of the Japanese so the US could wage a more effective war and understand better their enemy. Mead tried but concluded that it was impossible because cultures are made up of many subcultures. Culture gives us certain predictability of how people behave, which makes interaction easier. Those who are unpredictable in our society are either in an asylum or in prison. But no, national not even regional character is possible to list. Moreover, we are individuals with personalities who have a predictable way of interacting with people. But I challenge you to show me an empirical study on national character. Etiquette guides are a sort of “behavior predicting” book on how we should interact with others. When we learn about other cultural habits, we cannot generalize it to mean this is national behavior.

  28. Enrique permalink
    August 29, 2008 4:13 pm

    I kind of suspected that you’d say that. Apart from the labor market problems we spoke of, there is another element: Finns have not had in the past very much interaction with foreigners in Finland. In our lifetimes it has been relatively small. So, yes, it is difficult to some in a country like Finland to accept diversity and people with different habits. The reaction could be stronger in Finland than in other EU countries, where they are used to seeing people from different cultures living within their borders.
    I’m certain you consider ETLA a responsible source on the Finnish economy. Here is what they say about the immigration challenge:
    http://www.etla.fi/files/936_FES_01_2_immigration.pdf

  29. Enrique permalink
    August 29, 2008 4:44 pm

    Good for you, DeTant. There are many good things about Finland. Those good things that we have we must never give up. One of the great things is a sense of community. But like you said, Finland has changed in leaps and bounds. That is the history of Finland in a nutshell: adapting to different circumstances and, if I may point out, successfully in many cases. That is why I am an optimist when it comes to Finland. In that grand community people of diverse cultures must also feel at home. The next challenge is living with people from other cultures. Finland is not the first destiny for foreigners. Some go there because they like the country. I am one of these persons.
    Finland has the ability to overcome challenges. It has the ability to change as we have seen in history. But life is accepting things. We change as societies change. I think you understand perfectly what I am getting at.

  30. Enrique permalink
    August 29, 2008 6:23 pm

    Ok, Onkko, I was able to open all of them except for the penultimate link. What are you saying? That it is a bad thing? If alcohol is an issue for some Muslims, then don’t put them to sell alcohol. There are certain things that are sacred in cultures. For us, Sunday is an important day for rest. For the Muslims it is Friday.
    It’s not that complicated.

  31. Onkko permalink
    August 29, 2008 6:35 pm

    It is problem when people move in and want things be done like in their home. Thats exactly what is problem.
    You whined about how foreigners cant get jobs and now you said muslims “they just cant work on market” “they cant work on healtcare” because of their culture.

  32. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    August 29, 2008 6:58 pm

    – There is nothing obtuse about my remark. All those book on etiquette are on etiquette — they are not on national culture. What you are talking about are cultural habits not national character.

    OK – so *now* I know where our disagreement is. We use the same word with a different meaning. I mean “cultural habits” when I say “national charachter”. You mean with it some obsolete racial genetic association whicj I cannot understand as such doesn’t exist.

    Any child is a product of their environment so if you take 10 children from 10 ethicities and make all live their life from a baby with a different nationality you will have 10 children of different ethnicity – “of that nation” – who share all the “cultural habits” = “national character”.

    So I think we just have a problem with word definition here…

  33. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    August 29, 2008 7:02 pm

    The last of Onkko is this:

    Muslim medical students are refusing to obey hygiene rules brought in to stop the spread of deadly superbugs, because they say it is against their religion.

    Women training in several hospitals in England have raised objections to removing their arm coverings in theatre and to rolling up their sleeves when washing their hands, because it is regarded as immodest in Islam.

    Universities and NHS trusts fear many more will refuse to co-operate with new Department of Health guidance, introduced this month, which stipulates that all doctors must be “bare below the elbow”.

    The measure is deemed necessary to stop the spread of infections such as MRSA and Clostridium difficile, which have killed hundreds.

    Minutes of a clinical academics’ meeting at Liverpool University revealed that female Muslim students at Alder Hey children’s hospital had objected to rolling up their sleeves to wear gowns.

    Similar concerns have been raised at Leicester University. Minutes from a medical school committee said that “a number of Muslim females had difficulty in complying with the procedures to roll up sleeves to the elbow for appropriate handwashing”.

    Sheffield University also reported a case of a Muslim medic who refused to “scrub” as this left her forearms exposed.

    Documents from Birmingham University reveal that some students would prefer to quit the course rather than expose their arms, and warn that it could leave trusts open to legal action.

    Hygiene experts said last night that no exceptions should be made on religious grounds.

    Dr Mark Enright, professor of microbiology at Imperial College London, said: “To wash your hands properly, and reduce the risks of MRSA and C.difficile, you have to be able to wash the whole area around the wrist.

    “I don’t think it would be right to make an exemption for people on any grounds. The policy of bare below the elbows has to be applied universally.”

    Dr Charles Tannock, a Conservative MEP and former hospital consultant, said: “These students are being trained using taxpayers’ money and they have a duty of care to their patients not to put their health at risk.

    “Perhaps these women should not be choosing medicine as a career if they feel unable to abide by the guidelines that everyone else has to follow.”

    But the Islamic Medical Association insisted that covering all the body in public, except the face and hands, was a basic tenet of Islam.

    “No practising Muslim woman – doctor, medical student, nurse or patient – should be forced to bare her arms below the elbow,” it said.

    Dr Majid Katme, the association spokesman, said: “Exposed arms can pick up germs and there is a lot of evidence to suggest skin is safer to the patient if covered. One idea might be to produce long, sterile, disposable gloves which go up to the elbows.”

  34. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    August 29, 2008 7:07 pm

    So I think Enrique – is Onnko’s point here is that “when you give the Devil the little finger he takes the whole hand”…

    OK, so the no tea at Ramadan and alcohol is things you can work around with…

    Then we get the refusal to handle pork at Target… well, they will hire someone who will handle pork. Its the persons own choice and I do not call that “discrimination” if he himself “discriminates” first.

    The last link shows the problem. In Finland there is a whibne a school teaching chemistry lab forces a women to remove her piercings. Same idea – if it is dangerous to you or the others it is not allowed. And that is not “discrimination” either.

    Lets say I am a South African and refuse to serve black people? According to the ideology of “multiculturalism” I am allowed to do so.

  35. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    August 29, 2008 7:14 pm

    – Finns have not had in the past very much interaction with foreigners in Finland. In our lifetimes it has been relatively small. So, yes, it is difficult to some in a country like Finland to accept diversity and people with different habits. The reaction could be stronger in Finland than in other EU countries, where they are used to seeing people from different cultures living within their borders.

    Yes exactly – and you can lead the donkey to the water but you cannot force him to drink.

    What you seem to forget that Finland has had peoples from different cultures living within their borders… and integrated them. (jews, tatars, russians, swedes…)

    What Finns are not used to is seeing people from non-integrated cultures living within their borders… and the question is why should we?

  36. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    August 29, 2008 7:28 pm

    – Some go there because they like the country. I am one of these persons.

    Then why do you make such hateful anti-Finitic postings? I think you hate Finland just because you are making these wicked foreigners all the excuses to hate Finland. I would rather make postings for them to get a grip of their neck and stop whining and get a responsibility of themselves to overcome the obstacles. But you are giving them excuses to stay laying in the fire.

    – But life is accepting things. We change as societies change. I think you understand perfectly what I am getting at.

    I change when *I* choose – not when some…
    a) “Enrique”
    b) “my mother”
    c) “neigbors cat”
    *tells* me to do.

    You can choose *who* tells me – but I won’t do it. Just out of insolence.

  37. Enrique permalink
    August 29, 2008 7:37 pm

    It is problem when people move in and want things be done like in their home. Thats exactly what is problem.

    — I don’t see it as a problem and many don’t see it either.

    Hey, I think the very “whine” is incorrect. I don’t need to “whine” to put my ideas across. Anything positive about Muslims?

  38. Enrique permalink
    August 29, 2008 7:41 pm

    The issues you present are not issues for me. If there are cultural differences that are in conflict, then there has to be a way to get around it. It is that easy instead of making a huge media thing about it.

  39. Enrique permalink
    August 29, 2008 7:42 pm

    So I think Enrique – is Onnko’s point here is that “when you give the Devil the little finger he takes the whole hand”…

    That’s your point of view. What puts both of your points of views in a dubious light is that most of the comments you have made has been to point the terrible things about foreigners. That is your right to see things that way. But there are many who just aren’t moved by those types of comments.

  40. Enrique permalink
    August 29, 2008 7:45 pm

    Then why do you make such hateful anti-Finitic postings? I think you hate Finland just because you are making these wicked foreigners all the excuses to hate Finland.

    It’s interesting that you always use the bad-guy, hate-guy argument to invalidate a person’s argument. And then you blow it even further out of place when you use other strong adjectives. There is a problem in Finland and, like any person, I have a right to air them. But I should not tell you these things because you should know that people have such an inalienable right. Use facts, educated arguments to put your point across — don’t resort to insulting. Remember, we are not the only ones debating. Many people are watching closely what we write.

    If you say that you have helped foreign friends, how can you be so cynical about them? It just does not match. You even belittle Finns who went to work in Sweden. Strange logic on your part. Can we take your words for granted?

  41. Enrique permalink
    August 29, 2008 7:47 pm

    I change when *I* choose – not when some…

    You can do what you wish. Be my guest. Time moves on like it or not — culture and attitudes change.

  42. Enrique permalink
    August 29, 2008 8:03 pm

    Moreover, a final point. Gertrud Stein once said that people love what they know.
    I have presented facts on these posts and you come back with subjective misconceptions. If you want to inform yourself, read studies and go to think thanks to get informed. I do not have the time to debate any longer with people who have hate issues with diversity. This blog is a democracy. If you don’t like what you are hearing, then go to another blog where your ideas can find a more receptive audience. It would be a good time for you to move on.

  43. Onkko permalink
    August 29, 2008 10:51 pm

    You dont have presented any facts, just your opinions.

  44. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    August 30, 2008 8:37 am

    – A good source are the Finns that have immigrated abroad. They can give insightful information to authorities on what matters need to work in a society for the country to reap the benefits from its new inhabitants.

    John Wargelin, The Americanization of the Finns. The Finnish Lutheran Book Concern. Hancock, Michigan 1924, 185 pages.

    On the Finn as a miner, we shall let Van Cleef pass judgment. He says: “In efficiency in the mines the Finns rank close to the top. They make good timbermen in the underground mines, for they are reputed ‘clever and ingenious with axe and log’. Herein one may see the result of their many centuries of training in the forests of their native land. Their struggle with nature has also developed much resourcefulness. The younger Finns coming to this country show a considerable proficiency along mechanical lines. Some of them are employed in handling drills and other machinery requiring dexterity.

    “The physical strength of the Finn contributes to his ability to endure the strains incident to mining. The work is hard, and the winter long and rigorous. Where the open-pit process is used, employment does not last throughout the year. Hence many workers must find something else to engage in during the closed season. The relative isolation of the region makes travel to other industrial centers rather expensive. Therefore adjustment is made to practically the only alternative, logging. Hundreds of Finns go to the woods to labor in the deep snow and in temperatures ranging from -15 to -30 degrees F. Their life is camp life, but not after their own choosing. It oftentimes is next to intolerable. Yet doggedness, a sense of responsibility, and unusual powers of endurance, enable them to remain throughout the season. They have had vigorous training in the ‘land of a thousand lakes’ and the land of as many hardships.” This is related of the Finns in Minnesota but it applies in general to them in other mining regions as well.

    Particular mention must yet be made of the Finnish farmers in New England. It has become very noticeable that throughout the East, in the old farming communities of New York, Massachusetts, and Connecticut, many farms have not been under cultivation for the last five to fifteen years. They are generally known as “abandoned” or “rundown” farms. Prof. Van Cleef remarks that “these farms have been in a state of abandoned cultivation because the struggle has been too severe for the Yankee farmer or he has not been able to solve the problem of how to farm those particular pieces of land. Now enters the Finn who boldly, slowly, methodically and laboriously begins to rehabilitate these farms and to succeed where his predecessors have failed. He purchases a cow, some chickens and a horse, if funds permit. The first two items give him a substantial food supply in the form of milk, butter, eggs and even chickenmeat occasionally, while the third offers power and transportation. He clears away a few of the almost innumerable boulders, cuts off a portion of the dense second growth vegetation to make room for hay and enough of truck garden products for his own use, and drains a portion of the land. Tree stumps give him no particular concern at first, for he just cultivates around the stumps. In the course of time, and for the Finn time accomplishes much, all the land will be cleared, drained and under the plow.”

    Prof. Van Cleef writes on this question, concerning the Finns in Minnesota, that the Finn demonstrates his desire for mental growth by the attendance of his children in the public schools and his own attendance at night schools. “The Finns demand schools no matter how remote they may be. The daily attendance record of their children is very high,” says the St. Louis County superintendent of Schools. In a town on the Mesabi Range, where the Finn constitutes only about one-tenth of the population, the superintendent of schools reports that he is the backbone of the night school. Out of a total attendance of 900 over 500 were Finns.

  45. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    August 30, 2008 11:21 am

    Just for a fact can I admit to:

    http://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/artikkeli/Jo+yli+200+työpaikkailmoituksessa+on+rikottu+lakia+tänä+vuonna/1135239049289

    there *is* discrimination in Finland and especially in the job market. I am just saying it is not *me* responsible of this all.

  46. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    August 30, 2008 11:40 am

    – If you say that you have helped foreign friends, how can you be so cynical about them? It just does not match. You even belittle Finns who went to work in Sweden. Strange logic on your part. Can we take your words for granted?

    Lets say I have a cynical view of the human animal as a whole. As a Finn I expect people to “prove themselves” before I call thenm friends nor accept their cultures. But I do have several foreign friends from.. bizarre cultures to my father he berated for bringing “all kinds niggers” into the house back in the day and he did use the “bad word” on them… So I have no problem with foreigners really – as you have a problem with Finns being… Finnnish.

    The Finns who went to work in Sweden were “losers who could not make it in Finland”… thats just the repayment of them coming back in their luxus Volvos and being “better than us”. Easily explained by the “Finnish envy” which as a stereotype does not exist. . Not that I wouldn’t love my cousins but if they show any besserwisserism I’ll throw the bucket on the stove and bolt the sauna door.

  47. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    August 30, 2008 12:12 pm

    And I agree Finns are bad people as migrants…

    “Many mine managers found the Finns to be resistant to integration and slow to learn English. Local society in general harbored suspicions about the Finns, the politics of some and their unfamiliar customs. A settler from 1887 stated, “the old settlers looked down upon them with the same sort of aversion as the west coast people do on the heathen Chinee (Finn 16).” But ethnic discrimination did not end with such statements of ignorant fear.”

    http://ethnicity.lib.mtu.edu/groups_Finns.html

    very bad integrating – multicululturalist of their era

  48. Enrique permalink
    August 31, 2008 11:51 am

    DeTant, nobody is stating that you are responsible for discrimination in the job market. Moreover, I don’t buy your argument that Finns are bad migrants. As you know, Finns had a reputation for being quite radical in a United States where labor unions were the exception as opposed to the rule. One study points out that possibly this radicalism had to do with Finns’ ability to read as opposed to Italian immigrants. This may be true. But they got it right: exploitation, abuse, and discrimination should not be taken laying down.

  49. Enrique permalink
    August 31, 2008 11:53 am

    I don’t agree that the Finns who went to Sweden were “losers who could not make it in Finland.” So, what’s the big deal. Is it a bad thing if a person wants to try his luck elsewhere? I think it takes a lot of guts to be an immigrant. You have to have some sense of ambition if you move somewhere else and want to improve your living standards.

  50. Enrique permalink
    August 31, 2008 11:55 am

    Is being Finnish looking down on other cultures? Is it ok for a Finn (or anyone) to be racist because he has had little contact with foreigners? These are excuses. Possibly the opposite is the true for some — we are interested in diversity because we have not seen much of it.

  51. Onkko permalink
    August 31, 2008 5:13 pm

    You may want to read http://www.halla-aho.com/scripta/oma_aani_kuuluville.html and rest of his writings.
    Maybe you then start to understand what we are against to.

  52. Enrique permalink
    August 31, 2008 9:42 pm

    Onkko, what is the big deal? In a democratic country, people can start any party they wish. It is the voters who decide at the end of the day. How many votes do you think they will get? You don’t believe that the party is going to win the municipal elections, right? Or that it is a national threat?
    I am a little concerned about your attitude of Muslims. What is it that you fear so much? There are about 1.5 billion Muslims. Certainly like among Finns, you can find all types.
    Instead of reading my words or anyone else’s, why don’t you try to meet some Muslims through a friendship society? You will be surprised by what you’ll see that they are human beings just like anyone else. I think you are pretty young. How can a person who is still so young have so much suspicion for a group of people and be so suspicious of diversity?
    Who is “we?”

  53. Tiwaz permalink
    September 1, 2008 4:45 am

    Because we have seen what this “diversity” leads to.

    I see you still have failed to respond to my argument on multicultural societies either being built on destruction of native culture or their inherent nature as unstable and flat out horrible societies.

    We do not want islamic tradition to be accepted as equal to Finnish. Because we want this to be FINLAND. And Finland is not, has never been and I truly hope never will be islamic state.

  54. Onkko permalink
    September 1, 2008 4:51 am

    Im over 30 and i have met good and bad muslims but it seems that radical islam is funding and getting footstep in here and thats not good.
    And im sure good enough party couldnt win because most of voters are safe in their house and dont see what radical people do. Like you are probably middle class living in middle class area and doing middle class job.
    Go to areas where workers are, talk to police, nurse, social worker etc who see things you dont see.

    In my hometown i had nothing to worry, just dont go on drunken crowds and youre safe. That was until “refugee center” came in there, suddenly violent robberies etc…
    Today i live in bigger city and even police warns that its not safe to be out late alone…
    Did finnish change or did stupid politicians import problem in here?
    http://www.ksml.fi/uutiset/kotimaa/poliisi-varoittaa-ry%C3%B6st%C3%B6jengist%C3%A4-tampereella(91366).ece

    We is who you claim to be racists and intolerant, how to tolerate something like this? Ofcourse now “tolerant” people say “but finnish do crimes too” sure they do but how much and against who and what kind of crimes? And do we need to import problems?

    You say coming in finland is somesort of right, its not its priviledge.

    And im not suspicious, i know.
    I have seen fleeing girls in “safe homes” because they didnt want marry someone their dad decided or were with infidel.
    I have seen violence what there is towards finnish.
    I have seen total lack of respect for police/fire dep/ambulance
    I have seen laughing about “stupid infidels” and how “magic wall” just gives a money so no worries about job.
    I have seen total lack of respect about finnish woman, theyre whores and free game.
    Thats reality you dont see from your place.

    I know few muslims, im not sure if there is more because i dont ask about religion, and they are mostly good people, i dont hang around with “bad” people. Radical islam what finland is letting in is problem. Look what it is doing in england.
    Two totally different cultures cannot coexists.

    If youre coming with your own funds and have workplace then welcome, youre not one goverment speaks when it speaks about “multicultarism”.

  55. Enrique permalink
    September 1, 2008 7:02 am

    Tiwaz, I fail to understand your argument: diversity leads to destruction of a “native” culture. In the first place, the real natives of Finland were the people before the Saami. History says that the Finns pushed the Saami north when this group migrated.
    If you consider multinational societies such as the USA, Canada, Australia, India, China and cities like London, New York and others “flat out horrible societies,” then we are talking about a question of taste. For me, and for many others, multiculturalism, people from many cultural backgrounds living together, is a NORMAL thing.
    Your fear is that when more foreigners come to Finland, they will will eat Finland up. It is not that way at all. Culture changes all the time. Now you cannot say that Finnish culture in 2008 is the same as it was in 1918 or 1818.

  56. Enrique permalink
    September 1, 2008 7:14 am

    Onkko, any form of fanaticism is unacceptable. Our best weapon against fanatical groups in Europe (Neo-Nazis, radical Muslims etc) are our democratic institutions. The impact of Sept. 11 in the United States was ten times more powerful because a madman such as Bush thought they could bend the rules and laws to suit his agenda on the so-called “war on terror.” There are many examples when people and societies have abandoned their values to root out an enemy. The state turns into the “terrorist” like what happened in Argentina in 1976-83.
    If you are an EU citizen, it is your right to move to Finland.
    The violence you speak of is lamentable on both sides. If people have jobs and a future things change. In the US we had a lot of riots in the 1960s and a civil rights movement. This was the result of prejudice against blacks.
    We are concerned about Finns becoming “marginal/eristäytyy” from society. Why have not we yet devised a clear idea about integrating foreigners? The answer is simple: few jobs, discrimination and, most importantly WE HAVE NO IDEA WHAT TO DO.

  57. Tiwaz permalink
    September 1, 2008 10:31 am

    Enrique, you again fail to look beyond the “multiculturalism is good”-propaganda.

    USA… Where are the natives? In reservates, slowly having their culture killed.
    Canada? Reservates, again culturally dying away.
    Same with Australia.

    India is not as peaceful as you claim, natives of Mumbai (former Bombay) area are already lashing against english and have decreed that maharathi (IIRC) has to be written on sign which is larger than one with english. Also, they are acting against immigrants from North India.

    Add to these wonderful addition of ethnic gangs, other ethnic crimes. Specially in those “wonderful” cities of London, New York and Los Angeles.

    China is 92% Han by the way, it is not multicultural. Rest 50 or so cultural groups live in isolation far from majority population and under their control.

    So basically, each and every one of your examples is in reality either not multicultural, is existing only because it eliminated native culture, and/or is unstable and has plenty of social problems.

    You still do not see why I do not want to import those hellholes here? If you like them so much… MOVE THERE. Everyone who wants to live in multicultural hellhole, move!

    I do not want to ruin my home to make you feel good. Because at that point I really do not feel good. And since there already are multicultural hellholes you prefer, it is better for you to move. Since it is getting more and more difficult to find nice, peaceful and stable monocultural place like Finland.

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20646437-601,00.html

    THIS is what you get from having different uncompatible cultural backgrounds living in same area. Trying to say they are all “equal”. One of them will do something completely unacceptable. And their segregated society will try to shield them.

    Shall we talk about honour murders too?
    Child mutilation (circumcision both male and female)?

    No, no and once more no.

  58. Enrique permalink
    September 1, 2008 12:42 pm

    — USA… Where are the natives? In reservates, slowly having their culture killed.
    Canada? Reservates, again culturally dying away.
    Same with Australia.

    It was so-called “monoculturalism,” the idea that other cultures like the original natives have not place in society, that ended in a policy of systematic destruction of their cultures. Your argument is similar: outsiders must give up their culture and identity. You cannot compare First Americans to Finns. Finns live in a modern society and belong to the international community.

    My point about India is that you have over 100 languages spoken and a variety of cultures and they still have been able to build a nation through “unity is diversity.” I think that is an achievement despite shortcomings like in any society.

    What is wrong with New York, Los Angeles and London? My point about China, like other countries in Asia such as Indonesia, is that there are many diverse cultures living within their borders. Problems arise when a big group imposes on a minority, such as the case of Tibet. There is no tolerance for other cultures.

    How can you be in favor of indigenous populations when you don’t even accept minorities in Finland?

    I have already lived in what you call “hell holes” and I enjoy them very much. Rubbing shoulders with people from different cultures in the same city where I live is not an issue for me nor for many others.

    You’ll ruin your home for good with narrow-minded ideas about other cultures. Finland is no longer monocultural nor has it ever been. Finland has always been multicultural — what about Karelia? One reason why we have failed to unite Karelia back to Finland is because of “monocultural” views; that it, since Russians live there, we don’t want it back.

    Why is that you equate immigration with the worst things we see in our culture such as honor killings and the like? Certainly immigration has many more better sides to it. Jews/Arabs/US protestants circumcise born males for hygienic reasons.

    The difference between your opinion and mine is that you do not see anything good in cultures when they live in the same city as you. You prefer to read about them in encyclopedias and documentaries.

    The Nazi regime saw Jews as a “threat” to Germany. See what madness that such xenophobia brought on Europe and the world. Rudolph Hoess, one of the commandants of Auschwitz, was told by Heinrich Himmler to gas Jews to save Germany from the destruction that they would bring on the country. Twisted logic, no? We have to murder other people in order to save ourselves.

  59. Onkko permalink
    September 1, 2008 11:03 pm

    Watch this http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=y9dXGJ2rYdA&NR=1

  60. Enrique permalink
    September 2, 2008 12:16 am

    Yes I did and it is worrying. This guy has some issues to deal with. He portrays us as Angels and Muslims as the devil. He talks about “polls” but does not mention which ones. His speech is pretty tainted and he talks on very general terms: “the biased press, inferior religion etc… I wouldn’t take it seriously.

  61. Onkko permalink
    September 2, 2008 2:01 am

    You didnt watch enough them, he mocks all religions but mainly muslims because being muslim is being highly intolerant and such.
    watch this http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=sbLfpqBx2TU&feature=PlayList&p=3C7052B7ADA587B6&index=0&playnext=1

  62. Tiwaz permalink
    September 2, 2008 4:21 am

    Enrique, if native indians had enforced monoculturalism and eradicated immigrant invaders… They would still have their land.

    We are not the US immigrants, we are the indians. We do not want to be eradicated. So, we make simple rule. Integrate, or leave. Why is that so difficult concept? We love our country. We want it to REMAIN our country.

    If you can’t accept, leave! We won’t hold you back. You can go to one of those unstable and crime infested multicultural hellholes if you want. We do not want one here!

    London, New York, Los Angeles… Each is unstable and has far too much crime in it. And RACIAL or CULTURAL crime, like ones committed in Australia.

    That is what you get if you pussyfoot with immigrant cultures. They won’t respect yours, like you here do not respect our Finnish culture. They will try to impose their ways upon you, like you want to impose multicultural failure upon us.

    Thus, we either make THEM adapt to our society, or they try to force us to adapt our society to them.

    Those societies you say you like… MOVE TO THEM! I do not want to live in them. I have tried those multicultural hellholes. And I hated it. I want peace, quiet. Not 20 different cultures trying to push their ways and desires upon you at once.

    By the way, circumcision does not provide any benefits compared to being natural. But it includes potential risks. (both premature ejaculation and unability to ejaculate are more common in circumcised males. And then there are potential complications from surgery)

    I don’t want practices I consider rude or barbaric to be brought to this country. If your culture tells you to mutilate your children, either learn to leave it at border or do not come here. If your culture tells you to talk all the time, either leave it at border or don’t come.

    I like studying and familiarising myself with foreign cultures. In foreign countries. Where they are at home. And there I respect their culture and it’s norms.

    But this is Finland, this is not any other place in the world. And it is Finland because Finns live in it. And Finns speak Finnish (and some swedish) but above all else… Follow Finnish culture. If we give up that culture, we destroy our identity.

    I do see some good in foreign cultures too. And perhaps even might consider adding some parts to Finnish culture. But only on MY terms, or rather, FINNISH terms. WE, the Finns, must be ones who change things as we please. It is flat our unacceptable that foreigners try to push their ways to us.

    But you do not see the failure of multiculturalism. Multiculturalism is like anarchism and communism. Pretty in paper. But they fail in two most important isms. Practicalism and realism.

    Multiculturalism does not work as stable society, none of the societies you try to pass as multicultural are stable and peaceful. That is because when 2 different cultures meet, they will fight for dominance. It can be slow war of attrition where one is slowly and peacefully eradicated, or flat out violent clash like often it is with muslims in todays world.

    I do not want Finnish culture to be destroyed, and Finnish people with it.

    And Karelia is best left where it is. No, we do not want hundreds of thousands of russians in Finland demanding things. It is again WISDOM learned from mistakes of others. Just take off those rosy multicultural glasses and LOOK AT THE WORLD. Look at Estonia, their problems with russians. Same for Latvia, Lithuania. Georgia just was invaded because of russians.

    You clearly haven’t got realistic cell in your body, but I pray that one day you see stupidity of accepting huge minority of Russians if you are next door to Russia. Because at that point, Russia makes it their business to interfere with your life.

  63. Enrique permalink
    September 2, 2008 7:04 am

    Tiwaz, you cannot compare Finns with Native Americans. Besides, different Amerindian groups traded and must have intermarried. If you want to read about on of these, a very fascinating man, read about Alvaro Nunez Cabeza de Vaca, a conquistador turned human being who leaned to respect other cultures. He could not have survived all those years if: 1) Amerindian societies were closed to outsiders; 2) he was hostile to other groups. Some consider him the first modern American because he was able to ACCEPT the ways of both cultures. The underlying basis of his thought was his ability to change and live in many cultures.
    It is pointless to discuss about whether circumcision is good or bad. It is widely practiced among Jewish/Arab and US protestant males. Female circumcision is another story.
    I wonder what happened to you in those “hellholes” you mention. It must have had some traumatic experience.
    These ideas such as “kulturkampf” that you mention are from the 19th century.
    Yes, I am looking at Estonia. Great country but a lot of ethnic issues. That is exactly what happens when one group cannot accept another. If there were tolerance, understanding and no cultural hangups, Estonia would suffer less strife. As I told you a number of time: the problems arise when one group imposes its ways on a minority.
    The integration model you propose is unattainable. Cultures don’t work that way. We are not chameleons that can change culture at the switch. And, by the way, you probably think that there are millions of people trying to get into Finland and “invade” your so-called “monoculture.” If you were a foreigners looking for work, where would you move: England or Finland?

  64. Tiwaz permalink
    September 3, 2008 5:33 am

    Problems arise when one cultural group refuses to follow norms of dominant group. Or tries to impose it’s values on dominant group.

    Estonia would not have these problems if Russians there did not try to remain Russians despite being in Estonia. If they learned the language, learned to behave properly according to Estonian cultural definition. There would be no problems.

    But they refuse. They want to make Estonia Russian.

    Those hellholes are crime infested cesspools where different cultural groups do not happily mix, they dig into their own ghetto areas (or who forces immigrants to live in same area with others of their kind in UK?) and try to recreate their native country in foreign country.

    It cannot last. Like religion, culture is built to seek dominance. It tries to spread and enforce itself on the surroundings. Why? Because that strengthens it. Indians in America failed to impose their cultural view on immigrants. As a result, immigrants practically wiped out indians. Today, native american cultures are in decline and close to disappearing.

    Or those rapes in Australia…

    Cultures do not work like YOU think they do. They are built to conquer… Cultures which did not try to enforce themselves on their surroundings… Have died out. Not to mention that cultures are built for society and surroundings of each nation to fit that nation. Different places and societies require different solutions, thus different cultures come into clash when they meet very easily.

    All I demand is that every immigrant learns one thing. How to behave properly in terms of Finnish culture. It is not immediate and not like switching coat, but it is something I see as imperative to preserve peaceful and rather crime free nature of Finnish society.

    I do not want to dodge ethnic gangs and cultural ghettoes like I would if I were to wander around Los Angeles, New York or metropolitan London.

    You refuse to see these bad sides of attempting to make incompatible cultures to coexist.

    If I were foreigner, I might want to move to England if I did not care about my own safety. I could go to my national ghetto, try to pretend I never left my native land.

    But then again, if I wanted to live in free and safe enviroment. I would choose Finland. It is safe and free precisely because we are trying to prevent segregation which multiculturalism promotes. If everyone follows the same principles in public life, there is no conflict. If people form ghettoes with their native culture, there will be conflict because there will be situations where meeting sides try to force their way upon the other. Because they want to live by THEIR cultural rules.

    As said, show multicultural society which is not riddled with ethnic problems, crime and ghettos. You won’t find one. And remember, China is 92% Han-chinese. NOT multicultural.

  65. Tiwaz permalink
    September 3, 2008 5:45 am

    Do you know why you can’t show peaceful, unsegregated multicultural society?
    Because it is unnatural in a sense. It is impossibility.

    Just like communism. Communism is so beautiful idea on paper and principle. Everyone receives as they need, and gives as they can. But when we look at communist societies… Do we see paradise with everyone happy? No, we see people who have, and people who do not have.

    Same way, when we look at multicultural society, we see internal division, increased crime, increased problems. That is because human psyche, human culture and human being overall does not follow the noble intentions of theory. Human is competitive animal. And pack animal.

    Packs have rules to make sure they are not divided and weakened. If you fail to respect these rules, you weaken the group. Make it vulnerable. And thus you are cast out.

    Same way, attempt to have multiple cultures in same group fails. They will create division and weaken the society. Unified group without division is far more difficult to overcome than one that consists of multiple subgroups competing and fighting one another.

    That is policy Ceasar used against Gauls. Take advantage of their division. Ally with one tribe against second. Division kills society if it is put under real threat.

    That is why cultures try to dominate their areas. Because only by dominating other groups in the area, is there unity. Without unity, there is no strength.

    Tell me, why you people want to weaken Finnish society? Why you want to destroy it? Can’t you unhappy multicultural folks can’t move to hellholes which already employ the failure known as multiculturalism. Weak, fractured societies which would collapse if sufficient push was exerted…

  66. Enrique permalink
    September 3, 2008 8:21 am

    Why not? Why do you think that people from different cultures is “unnatural?” You cannot compare Communism with immigration. They are two different concepts. Communism is a political and immigration is a social phenomenon.
    Your point of views of culture are too simple. We are not a “pack of animals” because we live in complex, modern, technologically advanced societies.
    Your example of the Romans with the Gauls does not apply. There is no concerted effort to divide the Finns and conquer them. That is a delusion.
    What do you mean by “you people?” Interaction, diversity and harmony strengthen society. Your narrow-minded “kulturkamp” have created cracks in Finnish society. Finland has one of the oldest populations in Europe, needs foreign workers and here you are discussing myths! The adjectives you use such as “unhappy” are subjective value judgments. Imagine all of the things you are losing in life because of your myopic views?

  67. Tiwaz permalink
    September 3, 2008 10:21 am

    Rubbish. Division, difference and separation weaken the society. And Finland needing workers while we have high unemployment and facilities are shut down is an illusion of employers.

    What they want, is 20 year old professor with 10 year work experience and who is willing to work 20 hours a day for peanuts (literally). Of course there is huge shortage of such workers. It is unrealistic expectations of employers which create considerable part of employer shortage.

    Communism is social phenomenon as well. It was idea that everyone is equal (like multiculturalism) and everyone should give and receive as they can (like multiculturalism). And it failed like multiculturalism.

    And different people living happily singing kumbaya while their values and traditions are in conflict is unnatural. Why do you think there is no naturally multicultural society? Because culture is conquering by nature. It tries to expand and take over. It is never content with just being, because those that are will die when under pressure from expansionist cultures.

    Multicultural society is impossibility. Different cultures will have conflict, and when they come into conflict there will be violence. That is the hellhole you so much love. Gangs, ghettos, violence and crime. I see you cannot deny it, you try to desperately ignore the reality of your beloved multiculturalism. And in your ignorance you try to convince us to turn our nice, peaceful home into multicultural hellhole suffering from all those problems.

    Enrique, if you insist on living in such unstable, unsafe and fractioned society… Move to multicultural place. Enjoy the excessive crime and violence. Segregation and ghettos.

    Don’t try to push it here.

  68. Enrique permalink
    September 3, 2008 10:47 am

    Tiwaz, you have your opinions and I have mine. But why don’t you get in touch with the governments in Washington, Ottawa and other capitals that base their society on diversity and tell them that they live in “failed hellhole societies.” The responses you’d get would surprise you.
    I have the freedom to move anywhere I please and expose my ideas as I wish. We live in a democracy not in an autocratic state based on questionable cultural concepts.
    This plan to get slave labor into Finland is what many would like. You talk about Communism being a bad thing but yourself fear competition. Foreigners and Finns must compete equally for jobs at same rates. At the end of the day, it is the person’s ability that counts.
    Ignorance? I’ll let all the people who read this blog to decide that for themselves how their see your comments pitted against mine.

  69. Tiwaz permalink
    September 3, 2008 1:14 pm

    Please… There are always in every society people who succeed. Iraq under Saddam had people who felt things were just peachy.

    Some people under Stalin and Hitler thought things were just like they should be.

    Also, most would lack the knowledge to tell the difference. Or appriciation.
    Person from Hicksville Ohio would not live in multicultural society. That is reserved to some areas of USA. Accidentally, these areas also are ones that have most social problems. Gangs, crime, general unrest.

    But of course that is not all over the area, only in ghetto areas and so forth. Like Little Italy, Chinatown or whatever “Hispanic Community” you have.

    Where is violent ghetto in Finland? Hmm?

    Then, extrapolate, where is most “multicultural” areas of Finland. Do they tend to meet? Even now..

    Then, do same for UK. Areas with most crime and least uniform society, namely “multicultural”. Incompatible cultures meeting always results in crime and violence.

    I have no interest in slave labour. Corporations have, that is why they drag their production to sweatshop countries.

    As for immigrant… They compete on equal ground! It is not OUR fault they can’t speak the language and can’t behave properly. It is THEIR fault for not learning!

    We cannot give them magic pill which makes them speak and behave properly in Finnish cultural sense. (which is what determines what is right and what is not in Finland)

    They have to learn it themselves. Less bitching and whining immigrants! More LEARNING.

    Part of persons ability is their ability to communicate with clients and colleagues and ability to not disturb the work community (that is, behave properly).

    Finn who does not speak Finnish and does not behave well has same odds of not being hired as foreigner who does not speak or behave.

    What you want, is that foreigners would not be measured equally, but instead favored. I want equality. You speak and behave like Finn, you are equal to Finn.

  70. Tiwaz permalink
    September 3, 2008 1:16 pm

    Kyse katsos ei ole siitä, mitä sinä osaat. Vaan siitä, mitä sinä ET osaa.
    Siinä on maahanmuuttajien kompastuskivi kun etsitään työtä.

    Sytyttääkö?

  71. Tiwaz permalink
    September 3, 2008 1:18 pm

    See, when you have immigrant and native. Both of equal knowledge and so forth.
    Immigrant does not speak Finnish, and does not know how to behave in Finnish work community or express himself properly in Finnish cultural context.

    Finn does all those things, and also speaks good English.

    Who would the employer hire… Hmm?

  72. Enrique permalink
    September 3, 2008 6:57 pm

    What do you mean that he does not know Finnish? He may not speak like a native but he knows enough to get by in his job. That was another obstacle that was placed on foreigners before. They were required to speak Finnish as natives in order to compete for work that did not require such a mastery of the langauge. Culture knowledge?
    Tiwaz, now you are hitting below the belt.

  73. Enrique permalink
    September 3, 2008 6:59 pm

    Onko se niin? No mitä on se asia mitä siirtolainen EI osaa?

  74. Enrique permalink
    September 3, 2008 8:38 pm

    I do not understand your very negative views of immigrants. They are hard-working people that provide a service to the country they move to through their productivity. I know many immigrants who have learned to speak Finnish — and they do quite well. Did I say that I want immigrants to be treated better? No. I meant that they should be given equal opportunities to compete for jobs, just like you. There are many success stories.

  75. Tiwaz permalink
    September 4, 2008 5:44 am

    Employers are entitled to CHOOSE their workers.

    It does not matter if you think you can speak enough Finnish to do the job. Employer makes that call, if they notice you are struggling with every sentence, they understand that your claim of fluent Finnish was a lie.

    Finns do lie, but we have huge distaste on being lied to. So when caught with lie, it will drop your chances. It’s a cultural thing you see, we expect people to be honest to us.

    Eli siirtolainen ei osaa tarpeeksi hyvin kieltä ja kulttuuria. Ei ymmärrä, mikä on sallittua ja mikä ei. Ei tajua kuinka tulee käyttäytyä tehdäkseen hyvän vaikutuksen.

    There is person who gives this example… Which is again generalisation but points out at the crucial issue immigrants have to understand.

    American is person who in job interview tells he is specialist in computer software and hardware. After seeing computer at agricultural fair.

    Finn is person who tells he has adequate skills in software development. And has built Linux Kernel from scratch.

    Basically, when you make your CV and application, they have to fulfill requirements of FINNISH employer. They need to have correct amount of humility and avoiding excessive claims.

    Even more, if you get there, important it is in the interview. Because guy doing it will know what they do. If it is revealed that super specialist can’t tell apart IDE and SATA… What do you expect employer to do?

    Employer in the end makes the rules on what they expect worker to do. Not applicant. Employer can lower the limit, not applicant.

    Those same excessive demands are aimed at Finns. 20 year old professors who have 10 year experience. But we apply anyway. When no superemployees appear, employers select the least worst option.

    Problem for immigrants is, that they are rarely this least worst option. They do not understand how to market themselves in Finnish way. So they end up at the bottom. Once immigrant learns the language and learns how Finnish culture works… They get employed. But that is task of IMMIGRANT.

    Eli, jos haluat työn. Opi kieli, opi tavat. Sitten olet tasa-arvoinen! Jos et osaa, et osaa. Ja osaamatonta kukaan ei palkkaa.

    There is also issue of certificates and regulations. Immigrants apparently rarely understand that their certificate of electric work from Hicksville Florida are NOT RECOGNISED IN FINLAND. In here, we have our own (or EU) certificates and regulations.

    Immigrant without proper papers is not employable, in fact to employ such person to do duties requiring certain education or knowledge would be crime.

    If employer was caught by job security inspector having guy without proper papers working, regardless of their experience back at home, it’s going to be bad.

    It would also be bad if guy from Hicksville tried to build electric system of FINNISH house based on AMERICAN standards. Which may or may not be comparable. In many fields, Finland has far more strict regulations on how things have to be done. If guy from Hicksville does not do job up to FINNISH regulations, it is again issue which will lead to court cases and big fines.

    See, it is not that simple… You need right skills and right papers to be employable. And getting those is task of immigrant. If immigrant is too stupid or lazy to get them… Why complain about not getting a job?

  76. Onkko permalink
    September 4, 2008 9:05 am

    4 most important things employers look when they think to hire immigrant (not necessarly in order).

    Alan työkokemus, Alan koulutus, Sosiaaliset taidot ja Hyvä suomen kieli

    Immigrant lacks probably “Social skills” (read culture) and good finnish.

    What employers want to be teached to immigrants.

    “Monet vastaajat painottavat sekä suomen kielen taitoa että kulttuurintuntemusta.
    _Erityisesti ne, joilla on kokemusta maahanmuuttajatyöntekijöistä, painottavat riittävän
    kulttuurin ja yhteiskuntajärjestelmän tuntemusta._ Kahdessa vastauksessa odotetaan tukea maahanmuuttajien
    työelämäyhteyksien muodostumiselle.

    ”Suomenkielen taito numero 1. Suomalainen kulttuuripohja nro 2.”

    ”Hyvä suomenkielen tuntemus ja kulttuuriin sopeutuminen.”

    ”Maahanmuuttajan pitää sopeutua suomalaiseen yhteiskuntaan eikä suomalaisen yhteiskunnan sopeutua
    maahanmuuttajien tapoihin.”

    ”Pk-yritykset etsivät aina työntekijää, joka opettelujakson jälkeen osaa paitsi hoitaa hommansa,
    myös viihtyy työssään vielä vuosienkin päästä. Sosiaalisten tapojen hiominen yhteensopivaksi suomen
    kielen lisäksi se suurin haaste.”

    ”Suomen yrityskulttuuria ja suomalaisten mielen ymmärtämistä.”

    ”Että koulutuksessa tuodaan selkeästi esille suomalaisen työelämän ja muutoinkin kulttuurin erityis-
    ja erikoispiirteitä.”

    ”Työelämäyhteydet kuntoon.”

    ”Yritysten tarve ja työntekijöiden ja yritysten verkottaminen jo koulutusvaiheessa.”
    Vastaajista seitsemän korostaa ”oikeanlaisen työasenteen” opettamista maahanmuuttajille liittyen
    mm. työn laatuun, aktiivisuuteen, täsmällisyyteen ja järjestelmällisyyteen.

    ”Asenne työnlaadusta ja toimimisesta työmaalla.”

    ”Kulttuurierot ja vaadittu työmotivaatio sekä täsmällisyys toiminnoissa.”

    ”Tasa-arvo, sosiaaliset taidot, järjestelmällisyys ja pitkäjännitteisyys.”

    ”Enemmän harjoittelua suomalaisyrityksissä, selvittää, että suomessa on suomalaiset käytännöt ja
    niitä on noudatettava vaikka oma vakaumus on mikä hyvänsä.”

    ”Sosiaalitantat pois kouluttamasta. Ei pääpaino voi olla sen kertomisessa, mihin kaikkeen maahanmuuttajalla
    on oikeus, pitää puhua myös velvollisuudesta ja suomalaisen työelämän pelisäännöistä.
    Tuollaisella asennemuokkauksella tekevät karhunpalveluksen maahanmuuttajille.””

    http://www.mol.fi/mol/fi/99_pdf/fi/06_tyoministerio/06_julkaisut/06_tutkimus/tpt318.pdf

  77. Enrique permalink
    September 4, 2008 9:47 am

    Thank you for the link, Onkko. There are many types of companies and each have different demands. In countries where there are immigrants, their can be companies that serve the immigrant community in their language and with their culture. There are multinational companies that, depending on their market, may require multilanguage and multicultural skills. When I worked in Colombia, there was not difficulty or the need to read etiquette books or cultural adaption because the people you dealt with were all Harvard, Yale, London School of Economics graduates. We understood each other well because of our backgrounds. Certainly if I work in a smaller Finnish company that serves Finns, the requirements are different: language and culture skills are important.

  78. Enrique permalink
    September 4, 2008 9:58 am

    Tiwaz, employers can choose their workers as long as they don’t discriminate because of a person’s background. There is no problem about validating one’s studies or university degree. But you must admit that there are some very important jobs like cleaning where you do not need a university degree. Do you think immigrants are lazy? I understand some of your points but in my opinion you overgeneralize things: the Finns are like this and the foreigners are like that. Possibly if you would stop doing that, you see the world in a totally different way.

  79. Tiwaz permalink
    September 4, 2008 12:02 pm

    Do you have actual proof that they are discriminated because of their background?

    And cleaning is not clear cut issue either. You fail to understand that it is level where your employer may not have fluent language skills either, or your colleagues.

    How much good is cleaner who does not understand instructions or warnings when given in Finnish?

    How long is that worker going to feel at home in company if they are continuously segregated because their colleagues speak Finnish, bosses speak Finnish and so forth? They will feel like outsiders, which they actually are due to their limitations, and will leave.

    Not only that, but there is also very real customer contact. Cleaners do not necessarily work when there is nobody around. What if customer expresses some wish in Finnish and worker is incapable of understanding? It will have negative impact on image of employer.

    And what employer has in his hands at that point? Lack of worker! Now, once first few immigrants have left employer short handed, do you think next immigrant is accepted with open arms with their nonexistent Finnish skills?

    You generalise things towars rosy picture, I generalise them towards sometimes ugly reality.

    You continuously moan how immigrants are not treated equally, when in reality they are treated equally. But their selection of skills just is not up to task.

  80. Enrique permalink
    September 4, 2008 12:21 pm

    Check this report, Tiwaz.

    file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Omistaja/Omat%20tiedostot/blog2/Racism%20studies/Syrjinta_Suomessa_2006.pdf.pdf

    Why do you think that immigrants CANNOT speak Finnish?

  81. Enrique permalink
    September 4, 2008 12:43 pm

    In accordance with the Non-Discrimination Act, discrimination is:

    direct discrimination, (the treatment of a person less favourably than the way another person is treated, has been treated and would be treated in a comparable situation. Examples of direct discrimination include a person being refused service at a restaurant because of their ethnic origin.)

    indirect discrimination, (that an apparently neutral provision, criterion or practice puts a person at a particular disadvantage compared with other persons, unless the provision, criterion or practice has an acceptable aim. Examples of indirect discrimination include requiring perfect fluency in Finnish as a condition for being hired for a job although this is not necessary for the performance of the work.)

    harassment, (the deliberate or de facto infringement of the dignity and integrity of a person or group of people by the creation of an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment. The Act prohibits both deliberate harassment as well as actions with offensive consequences.)

    an instruction or order to discriminate (nobody can be ordered to act in a discriminatory manner).

    SOURCE: http://www.vahemmistovaltuutettu.fi/intermin/vvt/home.nsf/pages/02564D59F14F09FAC22573A200328697?opendocument

  82. Onkko permalink
    September 4, 2008 7:32 pm

    Ahh discrimation/racism again
    Read what those words do http://yrjoperskeles.blogspot.com/2007/04/monikulttuurisuus-ja-lastensuojelu.html

  83. Enrique permalink
    September 4, 2008 8:12 pm

    I read it with sadness. Poor man/woman. He/she should change jobs if she cannot take new challenges. She/he thinks she/he is trying to be courages in free speech but speaks of other cultures like they were monsters that Finns bow down to. Nobody asks anyone to bow down for anyone. Respect, however, is the minimum you can ask.

  84. Tiwaz permalink
    September 5, 2008 4:32 am

    How am I going to read report saved apparently on your HDD?

    And who gets to decide what jobs require Finnish and what do not? Immigrant or employer?

    As for why immigrants do not speak Finnish… Either too stupid or too lazy to put the effort. It is not going to miraculously project itself into immigrant mind. It will be years of work.

    But this concept of “work” is getting lost to people. They want instant results.

  85. Enrique permalink
    September 5, 2008 5:53 am

    Tiwaz, what is the last recourse to resolve disputes in a democratic society? The courts and government institutions — the law and to a lesser extent public debate.

    Sorry about the link. The correct link is: http://www.ihmisoikeusliitto.fi/Syrjinta.pdf

    What about Finns who do not speak properly English? Are they stupid too? No, not at all. Getting language skills is easier for some but more difficult for others.

    You want it to last for years. But do we have time, wait for generations, for the majority culture to accept others? I don’t think so.

  86. Onkko permalink
    September 5, 2008 9:07 am

    You obviously arent fluent in finnish, Yrjö is mans name (and what part of “Viidettäkymmentä käyvä suomalainen mies. Pitkä työkokemus lastensuojelulaitoksissa.” says it could be she?

    And point of that text was just that “they dont respect our culture” what is fed constantly, he complains about that not everything is worth to respect.

    Other good text about “respect” and how everything is explained by racism.
    http://yrjoperskeles.blogspot.com/2008/02/etnisesti-sensitiivist-tyotetta.html

  87. Enrique permalink
    September 5, 2008 9:31 am

    Onkko, sorry I overlooked it. It does not mean that I am not fluent in Finnish — it means that I am sometimes tired when I come from work trying to respond to your posts as fast as possible.

    Those who carried out the study on the reasons behind crime are QUALIFIED researchers whereas the man who claims otherwise, is not. He is giving opinions on how he see it. ONe of these is: Koska työskentelen itse lastensuojelussa, voisin todeta, että fyysisen väkivallan puolella nämä vähemmistöryhmittymät ovat kylläkin enempi sillä antavalla puolella.
    This is an opinion not a fact based on studies.
    If you look at US prisons, most of them are blacks. Does this mean that they are inherently criminal or the like? Certainly not. It reflects a wider social problem. THis can be discussed in great length and it is a complex issue. It does show at least one thing — maladaption. What are the reasons behind it? That is the question. Why is the crime rate higher in some parts of the city than in others?

    The was a good link you sent. Probably relations between some Finns and some foreigners will start to improve when the latter group has greater economic importance. There is an old saying: good business makes good friends.

  88. Tiwaz permalink
    September 5, 2008 9:54 am

    If those Finns who have no language skills go abroad and expect that they are catered to in Finnish. They indeed are stupid.

    If you do not have language skills, you have to be stupid to move abroad. Because elsewhere people are going to speak other languages. And only idiot presumes that natives will accommodate to you.

    And majority culture does not accept others, that is the very heart of this issue.

    You immigrants, and I personally do think you still at heart are one from what I have learned from our debates (IE foreigner with finnish passport), expect Finnish culture to accept you as it’s part.

    But culture and society do not work like that. What you try is to push YOUR culture and society into OURS. It is bound to fail.

    YOU people have to learn to accept and follow, at least in public, FINNISH culture.

    It is also the path of least resistance. To try to change Finnish culture and society means trying to change way of life for 5 million people IN THEIR HOME. Where they expect things to work out like they are used to have things work out. Not only that, but they would have to be changed to fit dozens, hundreds of different cultures and societies. Biggest ones only consisting on some tens of thousands of people.

    Think of culture and society as ships which are moving in different directions. Bigger the population, bigger the ship.

    It is easier to change smaller ships to travel along course of huge ship than try get that huge ship follow course of small one. Or dozens of small ones with conflicting courses.

    In short, you as minorities have to accept that you are MINORITY. Your rights and whatnot will be respected, but this society plays by rules of MAJORITY. That is democracy. Who has most votes wins and so forth.

    I also have one word of warning to you. If you look at history, you will notice that if minority tries, and specially if it succeeds, to force their will on majority… There will be backlash sooner or later.

    Sunni in Iraq fear retaliation of majority Shia after Sunni minority dominated them.

    In Rwanda Hutu-majority turned against Tutsi-minority, who had controlled the country.

  89. Enrique permalink
    September 5, 2008 10:10 am

    I am saddened that that is what you think of — a foreigner with a Finnish passport. But, as I have mentioned previously, I am who I feel to be. There are memories and bonds from Finland from my childhood, adolescence and adulthood that have claimed me, and which I have claimed. Nobody cannot erase them.
    In first place, Finland is looking for people with skills and many immigrants who live in Finland work and pay taxes, just like you.
    There are laws against discrimination in Finland and the EU. And, as you mentioned, laws must be followed.
    I think that any sensible foreigner that moves to Finland wants the same things as any normal person: work, advancement, better life and a brighter future. Is that too much to ask? Certainly one has to work to find his place in society. Nothing is given for free — not even in welfare-state Finland.
    Don’t worry about me launching a civil war in Finland. I do not need to because there are strong enough institutions in Finland to air my points of view.
    I do not understand how you can compare Iraq or Rwanda with foreigners in Finland. In the first place, Finland is a Nordic, EU, welfare state with respect for human rights.
    Such a correlation is incorrect.

  90. Tiwaz permalink
    September 5, 2008 10:23 am

    But are you entitled to expect to receive work without making yourself employable?

    Whole concept of jobs which do not “require Finnish” is idiotic. What kind of imbecile would expect to start out a life without a problem in any country without ability to communicate with locals on their terms?

    As said, once you make yourself employable… Through language and understanding the little rules of social intercourse. Most will find employment.

    You are just stuck on that group that is too stupid or lazy to do that. For them I have no pity, for they deserve none. I would not expect any pity for myself if I sought employment elsewhere without such communication skills. It is something you have to take into account yourself before committing yourself into moving.

    It is not responsibility of Finland to make immigrants employable, it is duty of immigrants themselves. I, or anyone else for that matter, cannot do that for immigrants.

    One of the tenents of Finnish society. YOU are responsible for what happens to you. Nobody else. If you do not prepare yourself or fail to investigate all required things to get something done. You can only blame yourself.

  91. Tiwaz permalink
    September 5, 2008 10:35 am

    As for my examples regarding Iraq, Rwanda etc… They were to point out to you, that if majority of population feel they are being pressured or mistreated by minority there is huge danger of violent retaliation.

    I don’t think many immigrants truly understand this issue. Immigrants see how Finns, following Finnish customs, are infuriatingly rude and bad mannered. And fail to understand that this is true to opposite way as well. Finns see immigrants who behave rudely, badly. And top it by demanding things from Finns.

    This annoys Finns. If you add to this issues like crime which I have mentioned before, you will have situation which slowly but surely pushes the majority towards much more extreme view on immigrants.

    Just like Hutus and Shias started to drift towards hatred aimed at minority trampling rights of Majority.

    While immigrants have not yet done in Finland anything as serious as Tutsi or Sunni minorities, they are steadily causing disturbance. Friction and general division.

    Such situation feeds Us vs Them mentality.

    Don’t tell me you have not watched the news. Right wing politicians are making gains in most parts of Europe. Position on immigrants is continuously getting more negative. While blame for this cannot be put on immigrants completely, much blame goes to European governments failing to take action long time ago, they are very much partially guilty of this.

    Multicultural society is illusion, as I have said. It creates division and factionalism. That in turn will sooner or later lead to native majority reacting and trying to rectify situation and return unity of their society.

    And that can easily mean very, very bad things for immigrants. Anything up to armed purges.

    Ball is in immigrant end of the court. Each one should take long look at native society around them and then look into mirror. And ask, “Have I done everything I can to adjust to this society, or am I expecting society to adjust to me?”

    Because it does not really matter if it is Iraq, Rwanda or Finland. We are all humans and when in majority we do not like minorities pushing us around.

  92. Enrique permalink
    September 5, 2008 10:45 am

    Hey, did I ever say that an immigrant MUST NOT learn Finnish? I never mentioned such a thing. Certainly knowledge of the language and understanding of the culture are key factors. Why do you answer my replies with insults such as “stupid” and “imbecile?” I usually don’t like to censor people. You have a right to your views but PLEASE keep the insulting adjectives aside.
    It is the responsibility of Finland to make sure that their rights are not infringed upon. By rights I mean laws. Certainly everyone builds his own future.

  93. Enrique permalink
    September 5, 2008 11:04 am

    –I don’t think many immigrants truly understand this issue. Immigrants see how Finns, following Finnish customs, are infuriatingly rude and bad mannered.

    But don’t some of your responses show just that?

    –While immigrants have not yet done in Finland anything as serious as Tutsi or Sunni minorities, they are steadily causing disturbance. Friction and general division.

    Some people, who think like you about foreigners, are the cause of friction. How can a few incite such suspicion? They don’t have the means to do that. Many are the low end of the the Finnish social totem pole.

    – Don’t tell me you have not watched the news. Right wing politicians are making gains in most parts of Europe. Position on immigrants is continuously getting more negative. While blame for this cannot be put on immigrants completely, much blame goes to European governments failing to take action long time ago, they are very much partially guilty of this.

    A good responsible right-wing party understands economics. If they see that a country needs foreign workers to keep the population from aging and the factories running, they are going to promote it. Extreme right-wing parties that use racism to get more votes are a minority in Europe.

    – Multicultural society is illusion, as I have said. It creates division and factionalism. That in turn will sooner or later lead to native majority reacting and trying to rectify situation and return unity of their society.

    And that can easily mean very, very bad things for immigrants. Anything up to armed purges.

    This is your view. I do not hear responsible politicians from the right and left speaking this way. Only small extremist parties have that type of a political agenda.

    – Ball is in immigrant end of the court. Each one should take long look at native society around them and then look into mirror. And ask, “Have I done everything I can to adjust to this society, or am I expecting society to adjust to me?”

    The ball is on both courts – since immigrants and Finns belong to the society. Immigrants have shown many times in many places that they are hard workers and can adapt if they are given the opportunities.

  94. Onkko permalink
    September 5, 2008 11:28 am

    -Those who carried out the study on the reasons behind crime are QUALIFIED researchers

    And scared shittless to tell truth (if they know it).
    Problem here is people who do those studies dont see reality (or scare that theyre stamped as racist), its easy to do study in safe haven of non multicultural area where you meet only educated adapted working immigrants. And telling everything is because of racism is easy way to explain.

    These are voices of people who dare to say how things are and trying to let immigrants look in mirror instead of blaming everything on something like racism.

    I had “rebel” (read i were stupid) youth, little crimes etc. “Understanding mechanism” grapped me and tried to “understand” why i do what i do, is it childhood or what?
    Of course things like “byhyy broken home, feeling outcast etc..” used to explain it. Can be partly true but..

    ..Rebel youth ended when grandpa once grapped my neck and said “se on poika sillälailla että ihmisiksi pitää olla, sinusta tulee vielä linnavenkula ja juoppo jos et lopeta, ja sitä en katota hyvällä. Itse pitää itsestään huolta pitää ja itse sitä päättää mitä tekee. Tämän viimeisen kerran annan anteeksi mutta auta armias jos tuo venkoilu jatkuu niin selkääs saat ja sen jälkeen ei tarvi naamaa näyttää. Ja muista se että minkä taakseen jättää sen eestään löytää. Kyllä sinusta parempaankin on kun valtion elätiksi. Nyt painu syömään, mummo on tehny jotaki. (mumbles while i left) perkeleen poika..”

    I realized that overunderstanding did blur my sense on my self responsibolity, “i do this because no one understands me byhyy”. I was one responsible what i did and how i behaved and only one able to change it.

    Overunderstanding almost ruined my life, i dont know if i could made it to “proper taxpayer” without that lecture.

    And second link said we should do something what is totally illegal.

    Henkilötietolaki 22.4.1999/523

    11 §
    Arkaluonteisten tietojen käsittelykielto

    Arkaluonteisten henkilötietojen käsittely on kielletty. Arkaluonteisina tietoina pidetään henkilötietoja, jotka kuvaavat tai on tarkoitettu kuvaamaan:

    1) rotua tai etnistä alkuperää;

    2) henkilön yhteiskunnallista, poliittista tai uskonnollista vakaumusta tai ammattiliittoon kuulumista;

    3) rikollista tekoa, rangaistusta tai muuta rikoksen seuraamusta;

    4) henkilön terveydentilaa, sairautta tai vammaisuutta taikka häneen kohdistettuja hoitotoimenpiteitä tai niihin verrattavia toimia;

    5) henkilön seksuaalista suuntautumista tai käyttäytymistä; taikka

    6) henkilön sosiaalihuollon tarvetta tai hänen saamiaan sosiaalihuollon palveluja, tukitoimia ja muita sosiaalihuollon etuuksia.

    And youll get your ass in court faster than you can say cat if you ask if someone is protestant/muslim/gay

    Good goverment we have…

  95. Enrique permalink
    September 5, 2008 11:39 am

    — And scared shittless to tell truth (if they know it).
    Problem here is people who do those studies dont see reality (or scare that theyre stamped as racist), its easy to do study in safe haven of non multicultural area where you meet only educated adapted working immigrants. And telling everything is because of racism is easy way to explain.

    These are voices of people who dare to say how things are and trying to let immigrants look in mirror instead of blaming everything on something like racism.

    That is not the aim of scientific research — to be intimidated and hide facts. If the day-care center employee who writes these types of things, why doesn’t he do a study or commission one to reinforce his views?

    — ..Rebel youth ended when grandpa once grapped my neck and said “se on poika sillälailla että ihmisiksi pitää olla, sinusta tulee vielä linnavenkula ja juoppo jos et lopeta, ja sitä en katota hyvällä. Itse pitää itsestään huolta pitää ja itse sitä päättää mitä tekee. Tämän viimeisen kerran annan anteeksi mutta auta armias jos tuo venkoilu jatkuu niin selkääs saat ja sen jälkeen ei tarvi naamaa näyttää. Ja muista se että minkä taakseen jättää sen eestään löytää. Kyllä sinusta parempaankin on kun valtion elätiksi. Nyt painu syömään, mummo on tehny jotaki. (mumbles while i left) perkeleen poika..”

    I am happy that this worked for you. This management/behavior/integration by perkele may be effective among Finns, but what about if it does not work in other cultures? Our society is not based on that. Certainly any member of society is responsible for his actions and there is the law to point that out to him — or to defend him.

    Isn’t identity protection important? What I or you do in your private life is your business as long as you do not break the law. What would be your agenda to get such sensitive information on the background of a person? Maybe it motivates you to know him as a person — not because of his background.

    The government we have is the one the majority of Finns have elected.

  96. Onkko permalink
    September 5, 2008 12:14 pm

    -That is not the aim of scientific research — to be intimidated and hide facts.

    But that happens, look http://www.halla-aho.com/scripta/alykkyyden_mittaamisen_suhteellinen_mahdottomuus.html

    And argh, day care center? since when child protection is daycare?

    -but what about if it does not work in other cultures?

    Human is mostly wise animal, “if you dont then..” mostly works.

    -Isn’t identity protection important?

    Yes so now you know to who not to vote

    And sometimes it seems we talk different immigrants.

    Immigrant who comes for work (maybe ready or uses his time to find with his own money). Welcome
    Immigrant who comes to study, welcome. i hope you stay after studies.
    Immigrant who comes with his spouse, welcome (i hope you didnt use your SO only to get visa and you can support yourself)
    Immigrant who seeks refuge. You better have good explanation of why. If youre really on danger then welcome (you, not your clan/family).
    Refuge users is main irk here, how we accept refuges from country where “refugees” go to holidays and send their childs to school in there…
    And those “refugees” are what are threat, look sweden.

    http://www.tkm.fi/mamu/mamu.cgi there is immigrants i accept.

  97. Onkko permalink
    September 5, 2008 12:43 pm

    And from halla-aho again, responsibility of what you command.
    http://www.halla-aho.com/scripta/paatoksenteon_vastuullisuudesta_vaihteeksi.html

  98. Enrique permalink
    September 5, 2008 1:34 pm

    -Yes so now you know to who not to vote

    But that is a different story. They are public officials.

  99. Onkko permalink
    September 5, 2008 1:44 pm

    -But that is a different story. They are public officials.

    http://www.tarjacronberg.net/

    humm?

  100. Enrique permalink
    September 5, 2008 4:08 pm

    As a journalist, you can pry into the private lives of politicians because they are public officials. It is a different matter with common people.

  101. Onkko permalink
    September 5, 2008 4:18 pm

    What youre talking about now?
    In Finnish Goverment page, sub page “Työ- ja elinkeinoministeriö” published that, where you got that “journalist” thing?
    And Tarja Cronberg is “work minister”.
    So you think some journalist hacked on official finnish goverment page and added that there?

  102. Enrique permalink
    September 5, 2008 8:11 pm

    Onkko, public officials are just that: public people whom the people have the right to know about because they represent us. That is why Kanerva got caught and Vanhanen has his share of problems, like the Center Party.
    Would you like people to pry into your life and get information?
    That, as you know, is a big issue now in the United States.

  103. Onkko permalink
    September 6, 2008 8:26 am

    Yes public people and now you know to whom not to vote if you care about your info.

  104. Enrique permalink
    September 6, 2008 8:37 am

    Yes, that is your right in a democratic system. Public officials can be put under scrutiny.

  105. Tiwaz permalink
    September 6, 2008 5:24 pm

    -But don’t some of your responses show just that?

    Or, do they show directness and honesty. Two things which in Finnish culture are considered somewhat… Virtues!

    Not rudeness.

    See, this is why I said you are in my view perhaps foreigner with Finnish passport.

    Some people, who think like you about foreigners, are the cause of friction. How can a few incite such suspicion? They don’t have the means to do that. Many are the low end of the the Finnish social totem pole.

    Are they? Or are immigrants who do not integrate reason for friction? They are the odd cogs in the machine which refuse to roll with others… They also rarely raise up in the social totem pole, revealing their problems to those who look downwards or live down there.

    -A good responsible right-wing party understands economics. If they see that a country needs foreign workers to keep the population from aging and the factories running, they are going to promote it. Extreme right-wing parties that use racism to get more votes are a minority in Europe.

    Ah, but they do not need workers. They need slaves. They are the people you should oppose. And as you might realise, this is trend that is moving towards extreme right. People do not jump into extreme right, they drift.

    -This is your view. I do not hear responsible politicians from the right and left speaking this way. Only small extremist parties have that type of a political agenda.

    Ah, but you have to look at trend. Trend is moving from left-center towards right. And as problems coming from immigrants are not reduced but increase, so does the trend keep going towards extreme right.

    -The ball is on both courts – since immigrants and Finns belong to the society. Immigrants have shown many times in many places that they are hard workers and can adapt if they are given the opportunities.

    BUT THEY DO NOT SHOW INTEGRATION FROM START.

    That is the issue. If they do not integrate, if tney insist on being the odd ones out. Refuse to follow norms of society… They are causing problems.

    Immigrants have to change, they cannot expect society to change to fit them.
    Why you insist on turning this country, which you admit you consider rather good, into one that is worse? Because this society is what it is because of Finnish culture.

    Take that away, and whole house crumbles because you took away it’s foundation.

  106. Enrique permalink
    September 7, 2008 10:01 am

    Your “integration by perkele” does not show very much respect for immigrants.
    The best integrator is work and opportunities. If you don’t have that, and add heavy handed discrimination, you have a big social problem.
    Slaves? Not at all. If they are legally admitted in the EU that would be hard. With illegal immigrants it is sadly true.
    Do you really think that there are big differences between the center-left and right wing in Europe? I sometimes have problems distinguishing which is which. They are a bit like the Democrats and Republicans in the US: the same sides of the same coin.
    Your model of “integration by perkele” is unworkable.
    It will always a country officially built on Finnish- and Swedish-speakers. However, with more foreigners coming, our concept of who we are is changing.
    The big difference between you and I is that I believe diversity is a positive matter. It is a healthy thing for any society, especially modern ones such as Finland.

  107. Tiwaz permalink
    September 8, 2008 10:38 am

    Why should immigrant be respected? What has this person done to me that warrants respect? Respect must be earned, it is not just handed out in cereal boxes.

    And slaves they are. Do you think all those poor EE immigrants are here working on same benefits as natives? Don’t be stupid.

    Corporations try to make sure they give as little to worker as possible, that is why they export work to countries with nonexistent worker protections. Or do you think that for example mining safety is anything similar in Finland and China?

    When was last time you heard of major mining accident in Finland or EU? And when did you hear of it in China?

    There is no lack of workers overall in Finland. Immigrants do not save our economy, there is no economy soon to save as all basic industry escapes to cheap labour land.

    And there are differences in center right and center left. But what you should understand instead of looking how things are now, is that you have to look at how things have ended up there. Look around you! What is the most common source of complaints in whole Europe?

    Disturbances and problems caused by unintegrated immigrants! They are the most popular source of complain along with taxes and weather. They are issue which is not dealt with, they are problem that keeps growing. And they are problem which keeps pushing the majority population towards extreme right from center left.

    Every politician who promises serious action to be taken against problems caused by immigrants is met with increasing support. But as people who are voted in from more moderate sections of rightwing politicians back up on their words, like Sarkozy, nothing concrete is done. Issues of violence and crime keep growing and so does discontent of natives. Until it reaches point where extreme right can get power, and that is when immigrants will end up in bad situation.

    You also, as I have said, fail to grasp that if you take away the foundation on which this country is built, it will collapse. You cannot turn Finland into multicultural and retain it’s system built on unified population. You will tear up what is built with lots of work and replace it with something that never works.

    You BELIEVE is very key on your comments. You BELIEVE that diversity and multiculturalism is good. I for far KNOW that it is not. All I need to do is read history, and look around me in modern world. Nations where multiculturalism is attempted in one form or another are always dealing with huge social issues. From civil wars to gang wars.

    But you close your eyes to reality, because you in youth learned to live in such hellhole, Argentina I believe, and subconsciously desire to return to it. So you try to make Finland image of Argentina. Country suffering from huge problems and poverty.

    Division and factionalisation are never healthy for any society. They only lead to conflict.

  108. Enrique permalink
    September 8, 2008 11:25 am

    –Why should immigrant be respected? What has this person done to me that warrants respect? Respect must be earned, it is not just handed out in cereal boxes.

    Because it is what educated people handle themselves in a social manner. This does not only apply to individuals but to societies and cultures. We may lose respect for someone but we at least give a chance for that to create a bridge between people and societies. Believe me, it is an easier way of social discourse.

    — There is no lack of workers overall in Finland. Immigrants do not save our economy, there is no economy soon to save as all basic industry escapes to cheap labour land.

    According to official government and university reports would refute your claim. There is already a labor crunch in some sectors and it is going to get worse. Companies are not stupid. There is no such thing as patriotism (or very little) in business. It is a simple economic concept: where can I cut overheads and increase profits. The object of the EU principles of free movement, capital and labor is to CREATE competition to increase productivity. I’m not saying this is right, but those are the facts of economics and modern life. Finland’s labor markets are too inflexible and costs high. That is the reason why companies move to cheaper-labor countries.

    What is an “unintegrated” immigrant? He he works, pays taxes and contributes to society. Or is he one that has not abandoned his culture?

    — You also, as I have said, fail to grasp that if you take away the foundation on which this country is built, it will collapse.

    I have full trust in Finnish institutions and Finns. I am not as pessimistic as you.

    You are right. Multiculturalism, polyculturalism, diversity are good things for a society. They enrich it and make it more resilient.

    I did not live in a “hellhole.” I lived in the USA — a country that has grown into a world power because it has gained its strength from immigration. Without such people it would have never prospered. Certainly there are many cons but the profits the country has reaped far outweigh the negative things.

    Argentina was very generous to immigrants, which changed the country. It did not become poor because of immigrants. It would have disappeared without them.

    The way you pose things creates “division and fractionalisation” of societies.

  109. Onkko permalink
    September 8, 2008 12:53 pm

    In finland is goes more like “let him do what he wants” and then we decide if we respect it or not. There is no respect what just comes when you say “thats our culture”.
    Fck your culture, just behave.

  110. Enrique permalink
    September 8, 2008 2:11 pm

    But he IS behaving that way in his culture. What do you suggest? Force Iranians to wear ties, Muslim women to walk around in mini skirts? Your request is as preposterous as asking a Finn to dress like a woman from Afghanistan.

  111. Onkko permalink
    September 8, 2008 3:51 pm

    She is acting as he pleases, if thats not accepted then its her fault.
    Easy isnt it? adapt or depart.
    If we dont like that kind of culture then she can be separated or just go back to home.

  112. Enrique permalink
    September 8, 2008 4:07 pm

    That pretty absolute. Can you do that without breaking the law?

  113. Onkko permalink
    September 8, 2008 4:23 pm

    Sure you can, there is no law what forces us to like someone.

  114. Enrique permalink
    September 8, 2008 4:44 pm

    And there is no law that can force people to conform to your values.

  115. Onkko permalink
    September 12, 2008 3:13 pm

    And you whine when reality strikes? there is no law but there is reality.

  116. Enrique permalink
    September 12, 2008 3:18 pm

    Whine? It’s not my style. I am a doer. Are you talking about your “reality?” Or the reality of the law?

  117. Onkko permalink
    September 12, 2008 6:59 pm

    What law can do? ill help, nothing.

  118. Enrique permalink
    September 12, 2008 7:13 pm

    Why do you think that? The law is to protect all of us. And there are pretty good laws already in Finland

  119. Onkko permalink
    September 12, 2008 7:16 pm

    Sure there is laws but there isnt laws what tell how to think.

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