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Discrimination undermines society’s values

September 6, 2008

Some of the comments on Muslims in this blog have been outright discriminatory and a cause for concern. They sound like people who have been gripped more by fear than by common sense.

If Finland is not at war with Iraq, what is it that these Finns fear so much?

The Yale social psychologist on the program said that if we fear our interpretation of outsiders becomes rigid.

He sums it up well, when the clerk actor refused to serve a Muslim. He explains why some stood up against the clerk: “They saw an injustice. It is justice that binds us together. It is justice that makes us a society. Any threat to that kind of justice and fairness undermines the entire system.”

There is also another disturbing aspect in the program: 13 stood up for the Muslim woman, 6 sided with the clerk, and 22 said nothing.

What do you think would have been the results if the same program would have been done in Finland?

For those who fear Muslims, I dedicate this video clip.

59 Comments leave one →
  1. Onkko permalink
    September 6, 2008 3:58 pm

    Its easy to those who dont know to protect muslims.
    Their book tell that they have to kill “people of book” (christians) or if they pay tax they can live.
    There could be and there is muslims who dont believe on that but theyre not muslims then.

  2. Onkko permalink
    September 6, 2008 4:00 pm

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2668560761490749816

    and there is 2nd one too

  3. Enrique permalink
    September 6, 2008 4:16 pm

    It is always a few bad apples that ruin it for the rest. Still, people should learn to respect each other — irrespective of their culture. If you took the opportunity to look at other sources on who the Muslims are, I’m certain that you would see matters differently. These videos you show from our culture’s point of view do nothing more than to dehumanize Muslims.
    I invite Muslims to comment on your thoughts about them.

  4. Enrique permalink
    September 6, 2008 4:18 pm

    Do you actually think that the 1.5 billion Muslims think that way? We had the same type of witch hunt in the Nazi regime with the Jews. They were portrayed as animals and see what happened: the Holocaust.

    What do you think if a similar program was made in Finland? I think more Finns than in the US episode would speak against that type of discrimination.

  5. Onkko permalink
    September 6, 2008 4:27 pm

    Do you know what muslims think about jews? they were friends of Hitler. Look what they teach.
    And no i dont think every muslim is like that but if 20% of muslims in uk says that violence is good way to do politicts.. im worried.
    I dont see them yelling against things like “honor” murders or bombings.

  6. Tiwaz permalink
    September 6, 2008 4:35 pm

    Reality Enrique.

    Muslims are problem as group, because their content of uncompatible and unintegrating individuals is far higher than in most other human groups.

    It is not racism, or anything else like that. It is fact. Look around you…

    What other major groups kill their daughters for not marrying man their parents told them to marry? Or kill them for marrying someone of different religion, or just wrong ethnic group?

    What other groups so eagerly murder or threaten to murder movie makers and cartoonists for their works?

    What other groups outshine others in rape statistics?

  7. Enrique permalink
    September 6, 2008 5:04 pm

    Yes, yes, yes… It is a complex issue and I condemn those specific things. I know Muslims and have become friends with them. We never speak about those matters you are talking about. In fact, it does not even surface as a topic.

    But switch matters around. Invasion of Iraq? Displacing Palestinians? Suspicion and hatred after 9/11… According to George Bush, we are fighting a so-called war on terror. All this has created a sea of hatred that has only helped to divide Muslims from other groups.

    If you wish, I could easily list a very long list of “un-Christian” things that our civilization has done on other groups. What about dropping an atom bomb over Japan because they were Japanese? Do we still go around depicting the Japanese the same way as in World War 2? All societies and cultural groups have issues — even ours. It depends what you want to do about it. Do you want to throw more fuel on the flame of hatred or smother it for good. That is the question.

    However, my point was the discrimination video clip on Muslims. Do you think the clerk was right in refusing to serve the Muslim woman? Would you give him the thumbs up or just stay quiet?

    That was my point.

  8. Onkko permalink
    September 7, 2008 6:15 am

    Atom bomb has nothing to do with religion.
    And i would give thumbs up, there shouldnt be any religion what says what dress you use or how you behave.
    Well that behave thing is depadable but dressing is not, if you want to be different then be but that isnt without consiqueses.
    Quran is not only religious book, its total order how to behave and how society should be and it cannot be changed.
    Read it, learn it and be afraid because if youre not muslim youre second class citicen (or dead if you dont obey)
    Religion is cancer and should be treated like that.

  9. September 7, 2008 6:30 am

    I am looking for a Reporter!

    I am one of many victims of discrimination and I am looking for some help to get my story to the public
    I believe the only way that these discriminatory corporations will correct their problems is to publicize the discrimination that is allowed in their organizations, because discrimination affects us all at some point directly or indirectly.
    Everyone should fill obligated to stop all forms of discrimination.
    Remember every day the only thing that keeps us humane is justice; the one thing that tears us apart is injustice.

    Hiram Walkers continues to deny the truth and stonewall, they fought hard to keep the claims not heard in Court

    on jurisdiction because of a Collective Agreement but the merits are true, they “can not” and wil not sue me for defamation

    because the “merits are true”.

    What will Pernod Ricard do about Racism Fraud systemic Discrimination in its North American operations?

    I published some info. on newsvine tell me what you think.

  10. Enrique permalink
    September 7, 2008 8:59 am

    It has to do with hatred and war. Don’t all religions do that? Catholicism?
    I do not understand why you are instilling fear about Muslims (Islamophobia). Another important pillar of our society is religious freedom.

  11. Enrique permalink
    September 7, 2008 9:20 am

    Hi Derrick, thank you for dropping by. Could you please give us a few links and maybe comment a bit more on your discrimination case you have against this company.

  12. Onkko permalink
    September 7, 2008 10:20 am

    WW2 didnt have anything about religion, did you notice nations with “same religion” fought each other?
    Is there hate speechs in churcs? Does church say that non cristian should be killed or taxed as lower people? Does church teach gays should be stoned to death? Does church teach jews arent human?
    Does church say that if you left it you get death penalty?

    There is difference between religions, muslims are what christians were about year 1500.

    And quran cannot be changed like bible, if cristians dont like something said in bible its changed/rethinked but quran is holy book what cannot be changed.

    There is no way muslims live in peace with rest of world if they follow teachings of quran.

  13. Enrique permalink
    September 7, 2008 11:18 am

    If you read history, Nazi Germany wanted to eradicate religion. The SS, was a “new” type of religion that only followed Hitler and his murderous regime. What about the Christian inquisition that started in the 12 century? There are many examples. Do you really think that all of the Muslims go around with a Koran under their shoulder professing to kill?
    I do not understand what is your point. Is it that we should hate the Muslims just because they have a different religious ideology? Do you want to incite fear, like a fuel, so we can hate?
    In first place, if we act like fanatics and do not trust our own institutions, we will destroy our society because we lower ourselves to the same level as those who have fanatic agendas.
    I know many Muslims. They are very nice people. Get to know them better before you judge them so harshly.

  14. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    September 7, 2008 12:17 pm

    The question is why can’t we choose the bad apples?

  15. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    September 7, 2008 12:24 pm

    – I know Muslims and have become friends with them. We never speak about those matters you are talking about. In fact, it does not even surface as a topic.

    Maybe you should speak about those matters. Maybe then you would know what goes inside a persons head. And what then if they would say something you would be condemning? Are you afraid of touching the reality? See now I do not call someone a “friend” before I know them inside. And getting to know someones inside and to trust them can take a while.

  16. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    September 7, 2008 12:34 pm

    – I do not understand what is your point. Is it that we should hate the Muslims just because they have a different religious ideology? Do you want to incite fear, like a fuel, so we can hate?

    I think onkko would say the same things of the revivalists up north – you know the people that can’t have a washing machine with a window because a man might see womens underwear and get sinful thoughts. Finland is a modern secular society you need to live as in a modern secular society – of course you can do whatever you want as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone else, but it is the point that people with these kind of ideologies hate *us* for what we are, be it unbelievers or atheists – as that is their dogma. Accepting this kind of fanatics is why there are so many problems today – and it is stupid to think that accepting a fanatic would make them somehow turn into a liberal atheist.

    Religion is the Opium of the masses.

  17. Onkko permalink
    September 7, 2008 1:06 pm

    -I know many Muslims. They are very nice people. Get to know them better before you judge them so harshly.

    Problem is i know them.
    I judge by my knowledge and they arent good people.
    I have personally seen womans running for “honor” etc..
    I have seen hatred teached on childs.
    There are some nice non religious but quran says those are infidels and should be killed.
    Learn that book.
    I dont like any religion what says what you can or cannot or should do.

  18. Enrique permalink
    September 7, 2008 1:38 pm

    Certainly Finland has the right to choose who it wants as immigrants if they come from outside the EU zone. In the first place, Finland and the EU has its secular values. They are open liberal societies and that is the path that we are on. But the point is if we cave in to what fanatics think — be it any religion or political group — we are falling into a trap and sacrificing the very things that we consider sacred in our societies.
    Yes, Karl Marx was right about that but some religious people disagree. Look at the rise of religion in the United States. I don’t know when you lived in the US, but I grew up there seeing what racial hatred leads to. I do not want that to happen in Finland because of some few Skinheads or religious fanatics. The best weapon against such forces is to believe in our form of life, our institutions and system of justice.
    Bush screwed it up for the United States because he started to overtly act just like some of these terrorist groups: torturing, invading countries and thinking they owned the world because they had the military might. Look at the United States today. It is only a military power weakened by war and indebted to countries such as China. A poor self-destructive strategy indeed.

  19. Enrique permalink
    September 7, 2008 1:39 pm

    But don’t blame the whole religion because of a few bad apples. Furthermore, one matter that taints our perspective of things is that some idiots like Bush have declared war on Muslims. This type of behavior fuels the fanatics and undermines the moderates.

  20. Onkko permalink
    September 8, 2008 2:38 am

    What about girls flying from balconies in sweden? Thats is already in finland and i have seen it, no casualties yet but will be.
    Few guys used “thats our culture” excuse in court when they beated woman who didnt want do what they wanted.
    They use their religion as excuse and live by religion.
    “Moderates” dont even blink an eye when things like that happen but yell when they think they need more allowance like own time for muslilm womans in PUBLIC swimhall.
    They dont need USA to tell us theyre screwed (in our values).
    There are “normal” muslims but they really do need deny muslim teachings and do that with voice.
    I have seen muslims in here and i have to say its not pretty, normal people havent because of “salassapitovelvollisuus”.

  21. Enrique permalink
    September 8, 2008 6:31 am

    Hey, if you want me to list a bunch of weird things that go in our culture, I could do that. I could mention the pedophile in Austria called Josef Fritzel who had locked up is daughter for 20 years. Am I now claiming that all Austrians are pedophiles? What about the Nazi horrors? Am I claiming that all Germans are Nazis? No. You take a few bad things about a culture and pin it on the rest of the group. That is called stereotyping.
    Stop singling out Muslims as if they are not human. Or what is your sollution — throw them out of the country and forbid them to practice their religion? That is exactly what the Nazis did to the Jews and Christians in the 1930s and 1940s. Do you like to stomp on Muslims because it makes you feel bigger?

  22. Tiwaz permalink
    September 8, 2008 10:46 am

    Out of all Austrians, how many are like Joseph Fritzl?

    This far we only know of this one seriously sick individual.

    In EU alone, in recent years, we have at least half a dozen honour murders which we know of.

    We have 1 Fritzl out of 9 million austrians.
    Definitely 6 families (in most cases there are multiple participants) out of 20 million muslims.

    Now, if rates were equal, there would have to be about 4 honour murders because 9 millions goes into 20 million 4 times.

    Instead we have 6. 150%

    Rape? Again, very small muslim minority and huge portion of actual crime.

    You can’t deny that problem is with muslim faith which has principles which are totally unacceptable for modern western society.

  23. Onkko permalink
    September 8, 2008 11:22 am

    Its all about statistics as tiwaz said.
    How many honor killings there is in sweden if you exclude muslims?
    I have seen with my own eyes crying muslim womans who flee because of violence when they dont marry one her father choose.
    And funny that you pull nazis in here, muslims do like that because jews arent humans according to them.
    I stop stereotyping when they stop acting like stereotype.

  24. Enrique permalink
    September 8, 2008 11:27 am

    Even so, we are talking about a MINORITY not a majority. That is the problem, some members of both sides expect the other one to take the first step. Both should take the first step simultaneously. However, to pin crimes and claim that the whole group is like that is simply the wrong way of seeing things. It only creates more misunderstanding.

  25. Tiwaz permalink
    September 8, 2008 11:54 am

    Tell me, why I have to in my country take step of appeasement towards immigrants who want to impose their norms in my native society?

    And while we speak of minority, we speak of minority which is statistically larger than it should be.

    You do not get so big statistical deviations unless there is something profoundly wrong in actual group from which this minority hails from.

  26. Enrique permalink
    September 8, 2008 12:38 pm

    The word “appease” is inappropriate. The correct word is mutual respect. Instead of using “impose,” let’s use the verb respect again.

    –…Statistically larger than it should be.

    Do you decide what is large and small? I don’t know about your statistical logic because you are not an official statistical agency such as Tilastokeskus.

  27. Onkko permalink
    September 8, 2008 12:48 pm

    Then you want to look http://www.optula.om.fi/uploads/nul786y.pdf

  28. Enrique permalink
    September 8, 2008 2:08 pm

    We spoke about this a way back. One of the things these statistics show that there is a minority of foreigners who commit crimes. The figures are of course a cause for concern but we should ask some questions why there is such crime. Does it show a wider social problem? For example, 44% of the racist attacks were on Somalis. In the highest criminal groups except for Estonians and Swedes, there is high unemployment — about 30% among Russians. I am not saying that if you are unemployed you should go and commit criminal acts. What I am pointing out is that this shows a wider social problem where there are many causes.
    What about high unemployment? What about a sense of hopelessness in some of these people that they are driven to crime because they see no other solution. As mentioned before, you cannot generalize and now say that all foreigners that come here are criminals or potential criminals. Terrorism is a last resort and reveals that people who take part in this see that there is no other way to resolve an issue except by killing others. If there were institutions, democracy, people have different ways of airing their differences.
    Furthermore, people are individuals and if they break the law they have to pay the consequences.
    What do you think should be done?

  29. Tiwaz permalink
    September 8, 2008 2:26 pm

    -The word “appease” is inappropriate. The correct word is mutual respect. Instead of using “impose,” let’s use the verb respect again.

    Again, if I want to follow norms and traditions of whateveristan, I go to whateveristan.

    Here I expect immigrants to follow norms and traditions of Finland

    -Do you decide what is large and small? I don’t know about your statistical logic because you are not an official statistical agency such as Tilastokeskus.

    Very simple. Statistically, you can expect 6% of population to commit 6% of crime. If they commit 20%, there is something clearly wrong in this portion of population.

    That is basic statistics for you.

    As for immigrants… It is problem of IMMIGRANTS that they do not make themselves employable.

    As said, learn to speak the language. Learn to behave according to local norms and customs.

    Why is that so difficult concept? You came to this country voluntarily. Nobody held a gun to the head of immigrant. So why try to fight the society which accepted you into this country? Why demand that you can behave like you please regardless of how it violates local culture?

  30. Enrique permalink
    September 8, 2008 3:08 pm

    -Here I expect immigrants to follow norms and traditions of Finland

    Point to me a few which you think are important.

    –Why demand that you can behave like you please regardless of how it violates local culture?

    Which group are you talking about. Muslims?

  31. Tiwaz permalink
    September 9, 2008 5:18 am

    -Point to me a few which you think are important.

    Basically all of them, they are traditions of this country and people. You are here as guest, obey the local traditions.

    -Which group are you talking about. Muslims?

    Each of them. Italians, muslims, buddhists, americans…

    If you can’t handle living and behaving in Finland in Finnish way, I recommend moving away. Why make life bad for both of us? Find country where you do not need to demand natives to change to fit you if you can’t change yourself.

  32. Tiwaz permalink
    September 9, 2008 5:26 am

    Read this article regarding multiculturalism:

    http://www.kenanmalik.com/essays/against_mc.html

  33. Enrique permalink
    September 9, 2008 8:01 am

    –Basically all of them, they are traditions of this country and people. You are here as guest, obey the local traditions.

    Could you give what you think are ten important or less important traditions that a foreigner must learn.

    — Each of them. Italians, muslims, buddhists, americans…

    Wow, I never thought you would start picking on the Italians… So what you are suggesting they should speak, eat and act like what you perceive is Finnish? Where do they learn these things. It’s not written in any book.

  34. Enrique permalink
    September 9, 2008 8:04 am

    Nobody signs his name after the article. That is pretty cowardly, no? If you have opinions, or opinionated thoughts, the least thing you could do is sign your name like a man, or woman. Isn’t it easy to go around with outright discriminatory thoughts without any respect for other cultures and not show your name.

  35. Tiwaz permalink
    September 9, 2008 9:35 am

    -Could you give what you think are ten important or less important traditions that a foreigner must learn.

    *sigh* Behaving like Finns. 1-10. I can’t list them, they are for me subconscious ways of reacting. They include, but are not limited in any way, for example following: Being quiet. Communication does not mean endless stream of noise.
    Respecting private space. There is no need for skin contact.
    Avoid superlatives. Sometimes stuff just is not biggest, greatest thing ever.
    Can’t handle skin? Then don’t go to public swimming pools.
    No, we do not celebrate whatever your national holiday back at home is.
    No, miniskirt does not mean she wants to have sex with you, and about that… No really means no.
    You do not bribe your way out of things.
    Related to that, there is way things work. Don’t try to invent your own version, for sake of our poor bureaucrats, just follow the rules.

    In other words…

    1. Obey the rules. They are there for a reason.
    2. Do not disturb others. Privacy is sacred.
    3. Do your work, do not expect others to do it.
    4. Do not disturb others. Didn’t I already tell that?
    5. Things here are done the Finnish way. If you can’t handle it, I heartily recommend some other place to live in.
    6. Personal responsibility. YOU are responsible for how your things turn out. Not us. Do not blame us for not doing what you should have done from beginning.
    7. If you do not speak Finnish, don’t expect to make it in society where everyone else does that. I might not feel like speaking english to you in my native country. And employers know that… (IE, loss of customers due to bad customer service)
    8. Values here are based on Finnish values. Not yours. Rude is defined by Finnish definition of rude, not yours.

    Yes, things are not written in book. How do they learn it? How did Finns learn it? Bye observing their surroundings. Mouth shut, ears and eyes open. Look how Finns behave and interact, observe, analyze and learn.

    About that article… Maybe Mr. Malik thought that his name in his own website, kenanmalik.com, would be sufficient signature.

  36. Enrique permalink
    September 9, 2008 10:17 am

    Wasn’t he the one that said publicly that blacks are inferior to whites? I would contest his ideas for the simple reason that we have had his type of thought throughout the ages — that some cultures are more inferior than others. It did not resolve anything except for that it sparked things like the civil rights movement. Did you know that one of the forefathers of Nazi racist ideology was a British-born author called Houston Stewart Chamberlain?
    Europe has always had very heavy ethnic issues. Look at such a small continent with so many cultures, languages and religions boxed in in their own compartments. Every now and then there are terrible wars that lead to Holocausts because some actually behave like good and believe that they are superior than others. Then we need foreign labor and we cannot integrate these people because we are still too shortsighted to see beyond our cultural noses.

  37. Tiwaz permalink
    September 9, 2008 10:26 am

    We cannot integrate anyone, that is the mistake you keep making. Immigrants have to integrate, they have to adjust to country they move in.

    Not the opposite! Why is this so difficult concept?
    It is easier for immigrant to change himself, than for whole society to change itself. And immigrant is someone who is not at his native country. Why insist in not learning to integrate into dominant society?

    Also, I see that you fail to response to very real issues here. You always speak on how multicultural societies are so wonderful, but I have repeatedly asked for example of multicultural society which is not…

    1) Built on destruction of native culture
    2) Does not experience excessive social issues in form of segregation, crime and slums

    I can provide you example of OPPOSITE. Monocultural societies which are not built on destruction of natives (as they are natives) and which do not have such huge social issues (all societies have, but not to same extent.)

    Finland.
    Japan.
    Iceland.
    Switzerland.
    Hell, even China with it’s 92% Han-population is stable, their issues coming from rather idiotic political system.

    So, why you insist that these societies change culture and society which are proven to work well for their conditions, and replace it with one that only has repeated failures to it’s name? Nations either founded on multiculturalism or which attempt it and as result start steady decline to chaos. Not to mention violence.

    Finnish culture is superior to other cultures, in Finland. To try to raise other, alien, cultural traditions into equal position would mean destruction and undermining of THIS unique culture.

  38. Enrique permalink
    September 9, 2008 11:07 am

    Switzerland? That is multilingual and multicultural: Italian, French, German and Romanish. Finland, Japan and Iceland are countries with an aging population.

    1) Built on destruction of native culture

    Hey the Finns forced the Saami to move north. Do you really care about native cultures?

    2) Does not experience excessive social issues in form of segregation, crime and slums.
    If we followed your recipe, the world would look like a zoo. Each culture would live in their clean compartments or in a sort of off-limits reservation. That type of world is preposterous.

    –Finnish culture is superior to other cultures, in Finland.
    So that means that all other cultures that live in Finland are “inferior” by your book. Don’t you ever worry what other people who read this blog may think about your rude comments?

  39. Enrique permalink
    September 9, 2008 9:19 pm

    Are you serious? So if you follow your eight points, then foreigners will be accepted as Finns? So it is that easy? So no Catholic Churches, Mosques and the like. If someone wants to go to Church he has to go to a Lutheran Church? What about foreigners clubs? Is it ok to celebrate holidays that are important to that particular country or culture? What about if I am Jewish and don’t celebrate Christmas?
    What do I do if someone follows your advice to the letter and he/she continues to suffer discrimination? What do you recommend?

  40. Tiwaz permalink
    September 10, 2008 4:54 am

    -Switzerland? That is multilingual and multicultural: Italian, French, German and Romanish. Finland, Japan and Iceland are countries with an aging population.

    Yet, it has roof system of Swizz culture and Swiss tradition. Or do you say that their Canton method of government etc are somehow French, Italian or German?

    Aging is not as big issue as it is claimed to be. And it is far superior compared to alternative of sociel problems and instability. Or do YOU enjoy being afraid to walk around some parts of city at night? Or worse, day.

    -Hey the Finns forced the Saami to move north. Do you really care about native cultures?

    Yes, when they are currently existing ones. What has taken place in past cannot be changed. But we can prevent going the way of Indians and Saami.
    Also, Saami are not restricted to little pieces of land in reservation style of USA.

    -If we followed your recipe, the world would look like a zoo. Each culture would live in their clean compartments or in a sort of off-limits reservation. That type of world is preposterous.

    It is stable. It is safe.
    Why do you find chaos and violence to be superior alternative?

    -So that means that all other cultures that live in Finland are “inferior” by your book. Don’t you ever worry what other people who read this blog may think about your rude comments?

    They are inferior in Finland. They are not equal to native culture of land.
    How can some somalian tradition be equal to Finnish in FINLAND?

    Tell me…

    As for what other people think, they are free to think what they want. I do hope that some of the immigrants do look in the mirror and ask why they expect Finns to appease them, instead of adjusting to Finland.

    I also hope they would ask themselves am I rude by definition of their native land, or mine. I behave according to Finnish principles. My words may come out harsh to those who are used to only beating around the bush with issues, but in Finnish society direct and honest speech is considered virtue.

    And what country we are dealing with? Finland! You cannot try to judge Finnish society by values and terms of foreign society. Our society is not subject to their values, but only to it’s own values! And those values are supreme in Finland.

    Remember that “pussyfooting” you and DeTant spoke of?

    My eight points are not complete or even large part of Finnish culture and society. It is far more complex issue, but yes. If immigrants learn to behave Finnish, they are considered Finns. It has nothing to do with religion or race.
    Benkku, parliament member and jewish. He is also Finn. Not because he is lutheran, but because he can present himself in Finnish way. His wife is tatar by the way.

    It has everything to do with cultural tradition and social expectations.

    If you do not behave like Finnish culture defines proper behavior, how can you be considered a Finn?

  41. Tiwaz permalink
    September 10, 2008 7:32 am

    Tell me, Enrique, if I move to whatever country…

    Will they in name of multiculturalism accept my values and principles as equal to theirs?

    Will Italian or French accept that I demand silence in discussion to concetrate on forming my counterargument or response?

    Will they accept and embrace direct, honest response which I give instead of expecting long winded attempt to avoid the issue at hand?

    Will they accept that I as boss will not mention anything about their work unless they make mistake in which case I give them negative input?

    Will they embrace all these and FAR MORE of my cultural traditions and accept them in their native country as equal to their native behavior? Of course, none of this must take place in their native language. It would be too much to expect me, hard working immigrant, to adjust to surrounding society.

  42. Enrique permalink
    September 10, 2008 8:28 am

    — Will they in name of multiculturalism accept my values and principles as equal to theirs?

    Since the Finnish culture would be respected and protected by the law, Finns would be able to establish churches, halls, restaurants and cultural organizations.

    — Will Italian or French accept that I demand silence in discussion to concetrate on forming my counterargument or response?

    It would be a difficult situation. However, if the French and Italian person understood that that is the way you converse, then it could work. I guess here it would be finding some sort of middle ground.

    –Will they accept and embrace direct, honest response which I give instead of expecting long winded attempt to avoid the issue at hand?

    Certainly. But there are ways of saying it in each culture. Are you sure that you are not talking about yourself. SOME Finns that I know would not even want to offend a fly. They find honest constructive criticism difficult. I have seen people from all cultures — it depends on their job — being forthcoming.

    — Will they accept that I as boss will not mention anything about their work unless they make mistake in which case I give them negative input?

    Interesting point. But possibly you should ask as a boss: what will increase productivity as opposed to lower it. How do I inspire my workers to do more? By complimenting when it is in place or hitting them when they commit a mistake?

    –Will they embrace all these and FAR MORE of my cultural traditions and accept them in their native country as equal to their native behavior? Of course, none of this must take place in their native language. It would be too much to expect me, hard working immigrant, to adjust to surrounding society.

    I think the question is what is more effective. I’m not saying that you have to learn Italian and French. Since they live in Finland they should speak Finnish. I would not look at the matter culturally but see these people as individuals and use that as a benchmark when communicating. If a person is sensitive should I be harsh? If a person likes me to be forthcoming, should I do the opposite. I’m certain you speak and treat your friends in different ways. Or is it that you have “a one-size-fits-all” manner of communicating?

  43. Tiwaz permalink
    September 10, 2008 10:03 am

    Yes, I have one size fits all approach. Finnish tradition. That is how things work here. Everyone knows what are the basic ground rules, thus everyone starts out at equal ground.

    I have no means of knowing what kind of person someone is when I first meet them, thus I resort to use local culturally and socially acceptable behavior until I have established some kind of understanding of that person.

    This takes place under FINNISH cultural and social norms, as this is FINLAND and I am FINN.

    Of course, stupid immigrant expects that in FINLAND they would approach him/her according to ITALIAN norms, or perhaps Argentinian. And then they are awfully offended when Finns follow their own norms in their native country.

    This is not about individuals, this is about society and behaving according to it’s principles to ensure that there is least friction in society.

  44. Enrique permalink
    September 10, 2008 12:57 pm

    Why do you use adjectives such as “stupid” in your speech. It does not do very much for your arguments.

    You did not answer one of my central questions: If an immigrant follows your advice to the letter but is still discriminated by others for NOT being a Finn — what should he do?

  45. Tiwaz permalink
    September 10, 2008 1:07 pm

    Ah, but my advice are only beginning. The complexity of Finnish social structure cannot be thoroughly explained here. Nor by me.

    But once person integrates to Finnish society and is still discriminated, THEN there is discrimination and that is not acceptable.

  46. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    September 10, 2008 3:01 pm

    – The word “appease” is inappropriate. The correct word is mutual respect. Instead of using “impose,” let’s use the verb respect again.

    And what exactly have these people done to gain this “respect”? Imposed their inferior cultural values over mine?

  47. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    September 10, 2008 3:07 pm

    – I would contest his ideas for the simple reason that we have had his type of thought throughout the ages — that some cultures are more inferior than others.

    Well I wouldn’t be surprised if you did. However on a cursory look Mr Malik is Indian, and if you read his CV:

    Politically, I have long campaigned for equal rights, freedom of expression, and a secular society, and in defence of rationalism and humanism in the face of a growing culture of irrationalism, mysticism and mysanthropy. In the 1980s I was involved with various far left organsiations and antiracist campaigns including the Newham 7 campaign, the Colin Roach campaign and East London Workers Against Racism. I have written of how the Salman Rushdie affair helped transform my relationship with the left; the Rushdie affair gave early notice of the abandonment by many sections of the left of their traditional attachment to ideas of Enlightenment rationalism and secular universalism and their growing espousal of multiculturalism, identity politics and notions of cultural authenticity. As a result, much of my political campaigning over the past decade has been in defence of free speech, secularism and scientific rationalism.

    And of course you oppose anyone that happens to have rational ideas.

  48. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    September 10, 2008 3:08 pm

    – Why do you use adjectives such as “stupid” in your speech.

    If a person does not wish to be classified as stupid – maybe they should stop being such. A novel idea to many.

  49. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    September 10, 2008 6:12 pm

    I think this Mr.Malik says the thing I have in mind much better:

    The real failure of multiculturalism is its failure to understand what is valuable about cultural diversity. There is nothing good in itself about diversity. It is important because it allows us to compare and contrast different values, beliefs and lifestyles, make judgements upon them, and decide which are better and which worse. It is important, in other words, because it allows us to engage in political dialogue and debate that can help create more universal values and beliefs. But it is precisely such dialogue and debate, and the making of such judgements, that multiculturalism attempts to suppress in the name of ‘tolerance’ and ‘respect’. Cultural diversity only makes sense within a framework of common values and beliefs that enable us to treat all people equally. And to create such a framework requires us to be a bit more intolerant and to show a bit less respect.

    And what comes to his issues on race I find the essays quite interesting.

  50. Enrique permalink
    September 10, 2008 9:51 pm

    DeTant and Tiwaz… split personality, maybe?

  51. Tiwaz permalink
    September 11, 2008 4:51 am

    No. You have just found people who are not afraid to tell you what they really think.

    He just puts stuff more eloquently. I have less patience.

  52. September 11, 2008 9:43 pm

    Enrique, there is so much racism expressed by some of your ‘regular’ respondents, that it is difficult to read your blog without pain.

  53. Enrique permalink
    September 11, 2008 10:12 pm

    Hi Taina, thank you for dropping by. I hope more people as yourself put forth their points of view. The reason why I put up with some of these “regulars” is to show their bigotry. This is one side of Finland that has always shocked me to this date. I never understood it. I too am pained — but not intimidated — by their points of views.

  54. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    September 12, 2008 1:54 am

    Taina I hope you don’t feel so much pain you wish to kill yourself as reading Enriques anti-Finland postings makes me feel on some days.

  55. Enrique permalink
    September 12, 2008 8:09 pm

    DeTant, that is rude what you told Taina. She see it that way. If you look at the map of the people that read this blog, you will notice that it’s read in a lot of countries apart from Finland.

  56. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    September 13, 2008 1:27 pm

    So they should then stay in their own countries and not try to be better than us. i am not going to anybody elses country to be better than them, so what makes them the right to come complain at me?

  57. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    September 14, 2008 2:26 pm

    -The reason why I put up with some of these “regulars” is to show their bigotry. This is one side of Finland that has always shocked me to this date. I never understood it.

    Here is the voice of multiculturalism you understand better:
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1054909/Have-babies-Muslims-UK-hate-fanatic-says-warning-comes-9-11-UK.html
    Evidently we need more of this multiculturalism in Finland – we are seriously lacking in this department.

  58. September 10, 2009 7:54 pm

    Hi! I was surfing and found your blog post… nice! I love your blog. 🙂 Cheers! Sandra. R.

    • Enrique permalink
      September 10, 2009 10:03 pm

      Hi Sandra, and thank you for the kudo.

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