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Does Finland and Europe need a civil rights movement?

October 5, 2008

One of the things that has surprised me about this blog are the overtly racist comments. These types of opinions resemble how some whites saw blacks in the United States before the civil rights movement. I do not think it has anything to do with expressing one’s opinions freely nor that some Finns and Europeans are too blunt or sincere.

Even when we deal with people from our same national group, we do not go around insulting them because we know that it is counterproductive and only creates conflict. Would you want to integrate and embrace the values of a society if it is openly hostile to you?

If we want good relations, we have to know how to moderate our thoughts and take the other person into consideration. It is that easy, folks. It does not need political correctness or any magic tricks — only consideration for others.

Some people in Finland and Europe think that it is still “politically correct” to openly insult other national groups with their racist opinions. Here is an example of a comment I picked up recently from another blog:

Certainly there is discrimination in Finland, hatred for the Russians, chauvinism as well as other things – but what of it? Couldn’t we point out that these things are part of Finnish culture? Since they are a part of our official culture, we could make a point that they have to be protected from immigrants. It could certainly work that way – or maybe not?

Taking into account the racial cleansing we saw in the former Yugoslavia and horrors like the Holocaust, Europe can learn a lot from the United States and Canada about how to resolve long blistering race issues. Possibly a civil rights movement in Europe would help wipe out much of the overt racism that exists mostly unscathed.

The day will come when a blacks, Muslims, people from all religions, dark and white people from any nation will be able to walk the streets of Finland and Europe as equals. Certainly the most important step in this direction is accepting and respecting each others diversity.

97 Comments leave one →
  1. Tiwaz permalink
    October 6, 2008 5:43 am

    Or, more likely, there will be day when in Europe unintegrating immigrants are afraid to show their faces outdoors because natives got fed up with their whining and demanding and took action.

    While I do not support racism as such, I firmly believe that every society has right to defend it’s own culture and tradition against attempts of outsiders to destroy or deform it.

    It is this right which your words try to attack. If you move to another country, you cannot expect to pretend that you did not move. Finland (or Sweden or whatever) is NOT Whateveristan. It does not respect ways and traditions of Whateveristan. Whomever cannot handle that change and adjust their ways to values and traditions of new country, should not move.

    But, of course, immigrants do not understand. They demand appeasement. I for my small part try in this blog and other places explain why this is flat out idiotic, with faint hope that I can shake immigrants to wake up to reality, at least few. And that they start to integrate to society around them, instead of trying to make society to integrate to them.

    Because if immigrants do not integrate, there will be day when natives are fed up and tired of immigrants spitting on native culture. And when that day comes, there shall be plenty of suffering.

    And that day is coming. Rightwing movements are growing. Immigrants and their unintegration are rising above old issues in list of problems people want dealt with.

  2. Enrique permalink
    October 6, 2008 1:38 pm

    Again we differ. What worries me is what you mean “by taking action.” Furthermore, other cultures do not “destroy” a majority culture. When cultures meet, they interact. That is something you cannot avoid. And stop your whining that immigrants need appeasement and special treatment. They work harder and longer than many of the natives. They are tough people that have been hardened by their experiences.
    Culture is like a religion. You cannot force it down anyone’s throat except for in autocratic countries. It is a choice how much people want to integrate.

  3. Tiwaz permalink
    October 6, 2008 4:51 pm

    And it is choice if people want unintegrating immigrants around them. Wake up! Humans are territorial. Little hideouts of alien cultures are not looked upon favourably. Specially when their norms violate principles of society surrounding them.
    Look at rape crimes, for example in Australia. Those muslim boys raped white women because they did not act like MUSLIMS in AUSTRALIA. That is the extreme case of forcing foreign culture down the natives throats. But even if most of such activity is not as serious, it piles up as there are more and more immigrants demanding appeasement (respect of their ways at cost of native culture) from natives.

    Cultures destroy one another. Weaker is overrun by stronger (reference, native cultures in USA, South-America, Australia as examples) . Or, if stronger culture is made weak artificially, like in current society. This world is not big happy place singing kumbaya. It is cruel, harsh world. No puppies and daisies all around.

    But this process of screwing the natives cannot keep on going. Sooner or later, natives in countries with established societies will get tired of being pariahs in their own homes. They will lash out against immigrants who try to push their foreign ways to native society and native homes.

    That is day I will dread, and it will come. And you are right to worry. Because if, and as it is it is question of when, natives wake up and decide to take back their homes and culture. It will not be peaceful.

  4. Enrique permalink
    October 6, 2008 7:20 pm

    Yes, according to you, immigrants are evil who only go around destroying cultures. Have you ever thought about how cultures can live harmoniously together? Has that though ever crossed your mind?

  5. Tiwaz permalink
    October 7, 2008 4:33 am

    Can you show me where this is possible?

    You live in fantasyland. Look how nicely different cultures got along in Yugoslavia.
    Cultures are not harmonious in their way to live together. Why? Because those peaceful “turn the other cheek”-cultures got wiped out centuries ago.

    Cultures are also imperative in defining behavior and interaction in society. Cultural norms dictate how you approach person, interact with them and so forth. If you have different cultures, you will have different norms. Those norms are not same, futher apart the cultures are in origin and more likely they are to be totally different in norms.

    This leads to issue where people have no common ground where to meet. Both follow their own cultural norms and see other as rude little bastard, which breeds hatred.

    Or one group starts criminal activity because in their cultural context it would be more tolerated. I am again looking at muslim rapists, who in many cases get certain level of acceptance from their own group because victims were “not proper” and “provoked” those men through their actions and way to be.

    Apparently cultural harmony tells us to put our women in burkha not to offend the immigrants. And give up rest of our cultural heritage and norms to not offend the rest. What is left for us then?

    Nothing. We no longer have culture to claim as our own. No country to claim as our own. Nothing.

    But that is what you would love to see. Destruction of Finnish culture and society.

  6. Onkko permalink
    October 8, 2008 6:46 am


    That radioclip is also full of overly racist comments.
    Oh what richness our school will get..

  7. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    October 8, 2008 7:25 am

    The main difference between Finland and the USA is that the blacks in Finland weren’t forcifully stolen and sold and dragged from their home countries and make to work as slaves for a few hundreds of years. The foreigners in Finland are here because of their own free will. You can even say people we didn’t invite to come over, really. On the contrary, Finns are the nation that was treated as slaves and second class citizens by occupying powers like Sweden and Russia, so the “Finnish Civil Rights” movement finally gained independence 90 years ago. We have had our own civil rights movement actually, and even there is still work to be done with the Roma and Sami, the issues we do share with our Nordic neighbors and even the Finns have had “civil rights” issues in Sweden and Norway. What I object to is the foreigners and immigrants demanding more rights than what the natives have – we are all equals after the fact.

  8. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    October 8, 2008 7:35 am

    – Have you ever thought about how cultures can live harmoniously together? Has that though ever crossed your mind?

    Yes, you know those old ladies at the railway station standing silently with those magazines with jesus and the lamb and the wolves on a pasture. You read their books too much. World reality unfortunately is different, you open the tv or a newspaper its just war conflict and financial crisis.

  9. Enrique permalink
    October 9, 2008 12:46 am

    The answer: Canada, Australia, the United States.

  10. Enrique permalink
    October 9, 2008 12:55 am

    Onkko, why are they racist? It may be a cultural thing, but I do not understand why when we speak about immigrants they think and live in some other solar system. Certainly they have a right to follow their religion, but things such as biology, astronomy, mathematics and other sciences you cannot create fairy tales. If a person does not believe in evolution, that is his right but it does not mean that physical anthropology classes have to end.
    Treating other cultures does not mean that you have to be so open minded and hypersensitive that your brains spill on the table. Cultures are different and we must acknowledge that and respect them. However, the clip sounds like a person talking about Martians. Oh, they are so different, and how are we going to deal with this…

  11. Enrique permalink
    October 9, 2008 1:00 am

    DeTant, I am not justifying the that the US is the best model. The only thing I mentioned was that because of the civil rights movement many things changed. That is a good way of looking, when you talk about the Finnish civil rights movement that gave Finns the right to be an independent nation. Some social scientists call that “new racism.” Mind you, I am not accusing you of being a “new racist.” People no longer lynch blacks but are resentful that such people get special treatment. Maybe more information on their plight and social situation would clear matters up. I think a Finn has much better chances in Finland to advance than a foreigner.

  12. Enrique permalink
    October 9, 2008 1:04 am

    Societies also need dreams and goals. You cannot always look at things as if they will never change. The financial crisis is a bummer. It is going to be bad news for the world. Hard times are ahead. But like Obama said, all of us have to sacrifice and restore the ideal that future generations will be able to embrace the American dream. What is the Finnish dream? Is it buying a house by the lake in downtown Tampere or Kuopio?
    If Finland did not have ideals to become independent or threw in the towel when the Russians crossed into Finland on November 30, 1939, where would we be today.

  13. Onkko permalink
    October 9, 2008 1:21 am

    The answer: Canada, Australia, the United States.

    Canada: young nation created by immigrants who destroyed native population.
    Australia: young nation created by immigrants who destroyed native population.
    USA: young nation created by immigrants who destroyed native population.

    I see pattern here😮

    Now we only have apply that in europe too and then we have nice multiculture society. I bet there is 900 million africans and 4 billion asians who want to do that.
    But who can blame them, europeans did that to whole america and australia. Almost did same for africa but forgotted the “destroy native population” part so that multicultural thing failed.

  14. Tiwaz permalink
    October 9, 2008 4:24 am

    Onkko has it on the head of the nail. Not USA, not Canada and not Australia are old, established societies. They are colonies.

    Finland is not colony, thus there is no way you can apply what applies on colonies which destroyed native population and it’s culture on Finland.

    To do so, would require destruction of Finnish culture and society (which is apparently your agenda Enrique) to establish supreme rule of mixture of cultures which are most likely at each others throats when they get to similar level in numbers.

    This is not USA. Finns are not new invention which some british guy in british colony came up with. Our society and people are millenias old.

  15. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    October 9, 2008 11:33 am

    The answer: Canada, Australia, the United States.

    Canada = race riots, anti-immigration parties,
    Australia = race riots, anti-immigration parties
    USA = race riots, anti-immigration vigilantes “minutemen”

    Dishwash asked “where harmonius life is possible” you just showed us where it has been proven to be impossible.

  16. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    October 9, 2008 11:46 am

    – Maybe more information on their plight and social situation would clear matters up.

    Their plight and situation is irrelevant to me. I do not have a “white mans burden” I have to kiss anyones ass because of something my forefathers did or didn’t do. Who made their countries unliveable? Did I go to their country and destroy it or did they do it themselves? So really, the last people I ask for an opinion about growing trees is a person whose orchard died out of neglect.

  17. Enrique permalink
    October 9, 2008 12:02 pm

    But the problem with your arguments is that even though societies such as Finland may portray cultural unity, we may fall into the Mayberry syndrome. There are challenges and problems facing Finnish society (economic, aging etc.). Even though the Kauhajoki killer is an aberration, it does show that every society has its loonies. By bringing immigrants it solves some problems but creates new ones. The big question, in my opinion, is how we solve these new challenges.

  18. Enrique permalink
    October 9, 2008 12:03 pm

    But the “orchard did not die from neglect” — it was grown with elements that helped it to continue to grow.

  19. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    October 9, 2008 6:40 pm

    – By bringing immigrants it solves some problems but creates new ones.

    You wicked racist nazi xenophobe!!! How dare you say there are problems!!! Haven’t you already been conditioned to the holy mantra that we need more workers and colorful multiculturalism? Meanwhile the women’s safety house has stopped classifying the nationality of rapists as reality and truth are against the holy mantra. Foreigners are good, foreigners are gods, they come to civilize us natives delving in the dark forests! The discussion is not allowed when it doesn’t fit into the truth of the politicians and stupid women whose wonderful beach gigolo cannot find a luxury job he is entitled to despite being an illiterate uneducated bodybuilder. It is *all* our fault you see. Can you not see it? It is all the Finnish man’s fault. We are so wicked racist nazi xenophobes.

    Like this banking crisis if foreign people invested in Kaupthing they need to get their money back first as Finns are also white and nordic racists like Icelanders.
    This is true, just ask SDP, SFP and the Greens who believe the cows make a nest in the forest.

  20. Onkko permalink
    October 10, 2008 8:44 pm

    hikipedia does it again http://hiki.pedia.ws/wiki/Monikulttuurisuus😀

  21. Enrique permalink
    October 10, 2008 11:38 pm

    –You wicked racist nazi xenophobe!!! How dare you say there are problems!!! Haven’t you already been conditioned to the holy mantra that we need more workers and colorful multiculturalism?

    Come on, DeTant you are two harsh. Certainly there are problems like in any society. Not recognizing this is like sticking your head in the sand. As you know, I like multicultural societies because I grew up in one and do not see the same threats as some have expressed in this blog.

  22. Enrique permalink
    October 10, 2008 11:41 pm

    What can I say, Onkko. I think there is still hope for you. But yes, that is a good example of racism, or xenophobia. Is that how you would talk to a person from Häme or Karjala — what about a person who lives in Sevettijärvi or Kemi? Now you know why there is so much hatred in the world between some peoples.

  23. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    October 11, 2008 2:18 pm

    – Certainly there are problems like in any society.

    No no no no – like your and other foreigners’ anti-Finitic hate speech about Finland we can read only Finland has any problems. All other countries are multicultural paradises. Finland is the last country of the world for anyone to move to. And I agree. Please don’t move here.

    – As you know, I like multicultural societies because I grew up in one and do not see the same threats as some have expressed in this blog.

    Yes well you can go back to live in the ghetto all you want. I want to live in Finland.

  24. Onkko permalink
    October 11, 2008 3:38 pm

    You missed point again, that wasnt racist page just joking about facts and how “elite” refuse to see those. Look other pages in there and see what that page is for.
    And what about people from häme or karjala? i of course joke about way they speak/their culture/stereotypes like they joke about mine and no one yells racism. We go along well because we share main culture where joking about other is allowed.

  25. Onkko permalink
    October 12, 2008 2:41 am

    And as said already USA is racist country, there is even now ongoing segregation of races/religions. Same is in canada and australia in “milder” ways.

  26. Enrique permalink
    October 12, 2008 6:27 pm

    DeTant, now you are generalizing and overstating the problem. I guess history hangs heavy on you. Move or not move, that is up to the person and the laws of the land. Finland is a EU member. People have the right to move and work in the 25 member states.

  27. Enrique permalink
    October 12, 2008 6:29 pm

    Yes, but still it is racist even if it is meant to be a joke, in bad taste I may add. Like DeTant, you overstate and generalize the problem. Then, in your view, people are fighting “race wars” in these countries setting up barricades in ghettos. Onkko, living in a society with other cultures is NORMAL in those countries. It is not an issue like you are pointing out.

  28. Onkko permalink
    October 13, 2008 1:13 am

    Normal in germany, sweden, norway, austria etc.. normal?
    May i laugh now?
    There isnt country what can say immigration from 3rd world is good. And it is issue in everywhere.

  29. Tiwaz permalink
    October 13, 2008 5:17 am

    “DeTant, now you are generalizing and overstating the problem. I guess history hangs heavy on you. Move or not move, that is up to the person and the laws of the land. Finland is a EU member. People have the right to move and work in the 25 member states.”

    SO WHAT?

    Nobody has said they can’t come here. What we say is that if they come here, don’t expect us natives to appease your immigrant a** and destroy our society and culture to make you feel at home.

    This is Finland, in Finland things are done the Finnish way because that is how Finnish society works. Which part of Finland NOT being Argentina you have missed?

    If you want to live in society like one in Argentina, MOVE THERE! If we do not want to live in Argentina, we do not move there. Since we want to live in FINLAND, we kind of LIVE HERE. If you change Finland to another ghetto multicultural hellhole, where the hell we would live? There is no another Finland.

  30. Enrique permalink
    October 13, 2008 12:40 pm

    It is funny that the general complaint of Finns is that they have to APPEASE, which is not the case. Who is asking for special treatment? The issue is following the laws such as those against discrimination. If you go to “white racist neo-nazi sites” you will find the same arguments that you are putting forth: race war, destruction of society etc… Come on! Give me a break!

  31. Enrique permalink
    October 13, 2008 12:42 pm

    You have not seen how people, when given the opportunity, can make good on that pledge. One of the reasons they fall into ghettos are attitudes like yours.

  32. Tiwaz permalink
    October 13, 2008 1:40 pm

    How about they integrate to society then? They end up in ghetto because nowhere sane natives want to have unintegrating immigrants ruining their neighbourhood. Peaceful coexistence of totally different moral and cultural groups is simply put impossible. One or another will insult other to point of conflict.

    Tell me, how you can pretend not to see the problems caused by unintegrating immigrant populations all over the world? Hmm?

    And I do not visit any neo-nazi sites. Forum I speak of is one for immigrants actually. However, it is rather tragic to see how you are eager to pull out the neo-nazi card to try to discredit truth when it is not one you prefer.

    You see, Enrique, your problem is that you want to only believe the good. You are so stubborn to be in denial over huge problems of unintegrating immigrants and you so much want to believe in illusion of multiculturalism that it renders you blind.

  33. Enrique permalink
    October 13, 2008 1:54 pm

    It is not a question of being stubborn, Tiwaz. You are being stubborn. You have not shown any credible or effective integration model. We spoke about this “integration by perkele” model. It does not work.

  34. Tiwaz permalink
    October 14, 2008 4:12 am

    Neither does “let’s all be friends and equals except natives”-model. In fact, it has proven to be worse option because it leads to internal problems and conflicts.

    Integration is simply something that has to be enforced. Those who run away when put under pressure are ones that would be of no use to society anyway. Rest will integrate.

    As it is, this model is too much about multiculturalism and too little of integration. If people are given 2 choices, they almost always pick one which requires least effort. By removing the easy choice, we simplify their life greatly.

  35. Tiwaz permalink
    October 14, 2008 4:15 am

    So, where is your magical working solution? And remember, it must be proven to work in SIMILAR conditions. Not in colonies which are built from immigrants (and even those fail when they start to receive lots of immigrants from completely different societies) on bones of natives like your favourite examples.

    So, show me multicultural society which is…

    1) Unified, as in not riddled with internal divisions and problems
    2) Has strong national and cultural identity (this is part of first but let’s be very clear anyway)
    3) Has strong native culture and identity
    4) Native society has history beyond finding America/Australia
    5) Does not have large issues with crime related to different ethnic/cultural backgrounds

  36. Enrique permalink
    October 14, 2008 3:36 pm

    Tiwaz, why are these such big issues you mention in a country such as Finland with 2% of the population is foreign and it is not such an issue in countries such as the United States and Canada? Why aren’t there any heated debates about multiculturalism in Canada, where this social policy was founded about 20 years ago? Look for a post this week about this.

  37. Tiwaz permalink
    October 15, 2008 4:31 am

    Because they are not established societies with millenia of background but hodgepodge collection of different immigrant waves.

    You can’t compare Finland to USA and Canada when history and background are totally different. Why aren’t there heated debates in Canada and USA about car tax? Oh yeah! Because they are TOTALLY DIFFERENT COUNTRIES!

    And there ARE issues with these things in both Canada and USA. As said elsewhere, one Canadian who moved to Finland and whom regularily posts to immigrant forum has stated that she was not unhappy to leave, as she saw where ME immigrants and their cultural baggage was dragging situation.

    And USA is horrified with concept of latinos or black people growing much larger than white population. Not to mention that huge majority of both have their immigrants come from very limited source of population for now. European immigrant descendants are still vast majority of population. And they want to keep it that way.

    Both see cultural/racial issues in their society. Multiculturalism is just very think illusion which breaks if you poke it a little.

  38. Enrique permalink
    October 15, 2008 11:54 am

    Tiwaz, you should get it across your head that cultures are not museum pieces that you place in a glass box and marvel. Culture is a tool for survival. Cultures change like history, which always feel the weight of time and, therefore, must renew itself. Are Canada and the USA TOTALLY different from Finland? They may speak a different language but the system is the same.
    Horrified by Latinos and black people? Hmmm. I don’t think so. Isn’t Obama a black? Another very big majority are the Latinos. Multiculturalism, people from different cultures living together, is the STRENGTH of a society. You are insulting those Finns that immigrated to other countries and all those who have the guts to start anew in a new country. That shows ambition.

  39. Tiwaz permalink
    October 16, 2008 5:23 am

    Cultures change, yes. But what you want to do here, is mould Finnish culture to fit YOU. Namely, turn it into what YOU like.
    WE, THE FINNS, change Finnish culture. Not guy with Finnish passport but no Finnish identity. Has it ever occurred to your little mind that Finnish society and culture are like they are because WE LIKE IT THAT WAY.

    We LIKE society which is unified and strong.
    We LIKE silence and comfort of privacy.
    We LIKE FINLAND BEING FINLAND.

    Not Argentina, USA or Canada.
    Which in my eyes is multicultural hellhole. People lacking identity, rifts and divisions in society which weaken it.

    And yes, Canada and USA are TOTALLY unlike Finland. Having mainly white skin does not make them alike. Our culture, society and way of life have been forged in centuries, millenias even, of life in this piece of land.

    What similar there was in USA or Canada to Finnish society have been driven to reservates to die away, and replaced with hodgepodge mixture of this and that and those. It is in no way comparable to Finland.

    Those Finns who moved elsewhere made their decision. And if you notice, they did not turn country around them into Finland! But here you want to destroy Finland and turn it into copy of some hellhole I would not want to live in even if they paid me.

    If you want to start anew. Fine! Leave! Nobody holds you back.
    If you want to live in multicultural hellhole which is riddled with internal divisions and is weak to it’s core… Fine! Leave! Again nobody holds you back.

    But do NOT try to import that idiocy to Finland and pretend you are doing us a favor by trying to destroy our culture, society and identity.

  40. Tiwaz permalink
    October 16, 2008 5:26 am

    I notice you Enrique never actually manage to debunk any criticism on multiculturalism. You just renew your claim how wonderful it is after having had all it’s failures today and in human history pointed out to you.

    How about taking critical look in multicultural society and seeing it for what it truly is. Attempt to destroy native culture and society through means of marginalizing and replacing it.

    Because that is only purpose it has. It does not produce strong societies, it produces societies filled with division and conflict. Ready to fight against itself.

    It does not increase tolerance, it creates segregation and conflict.

    Multiculturalism doesn’t really have any major redeeming qualities.

  41. Enrique permalink
    October 18, 2008 1:36 pm

    -We LIKE society which is unified and strong.
    A strong society is one based on justice for all. Racism and discrimination is a crime.
    -We LIKE silence and comfort of privacy.
    Finland is a big country. I’m certain you will find a spot where you can enjoy these things.
    –We LIKE FINLAND BEING FINLAND.
    Finland being Finland? What about Finns who are not like you? Don’t they have a right to being part of this country?

  42. Enrique permalink
    October 18, 2008 1:38 pm

    What similar there was in USA or Canada to Finnish society have been driven to reservates to die away, and replaced with hodgepodge mixture of this and that and those. It is in no way comparable to Finland.

    Are you saying that Finns are “pure” racially? If you are, it is one of the biggest fallacies in existence. We, as humans, come from many backgrounds. All that “pure blood” stuff was tried with the Nazis in Germany. Give me a break!

  43. Enrique permalink
    October 18, 2008 1:41 pm

    Certainly I can bring forth criticism of multiculturalism. It has a of challenges but these are made even more difficult when there is racism and discrimination. One of the criticisms of multiculturalism policy has been that it does not tackle the age-old problem of racism. But, like you know, since I think multiculturalism is NORMAL I don’t look at it separately but as part of a whole.

  44. Onkko permalink
    October 18, 2008 7:14 pm

    Multiculturalism is as normal as faschism and communism.
    We do have build in system called genes what alerts us when we see foreign people, be it face or way of talking it causes stress. Thats normal and cannot be just removed like you like.
    Babies react to difference and so does brains of adults. subconsciously brain sends danger alert when you see foreign face and no, it doesnt matter if you have seen faces like that more.
    Only think multiculturalism causes is distrust, not only against to “others” but to goverment and all.
    You maybe want to read about selfish gene and other studies about human beings and rethink what you say is normal.

  45. Enrique permalink
    October 18, 2008 8:41 pm

    Nah, never. For me it is NORMAL to see people from different cultures and walks of life. What you are talking about is abnormal.

  46. Onkko permalink
    October 18, 2008 9:05 pm

    Your “normal” is made possible in last century with planes etc. Its not normal to mix people and it causes mistrust and violence.
    Few foreigners visiting and doing trade is normal, lot of foreigners living in isnt.
    You can see that from your country, europeans came in 1500 and where are locals now.

  47. Enrique permalink
    October 19, 2008 2:38 am

    That is a dumbest argument I have heard to date. I really do not know if you are joking or what.

  48. Tiwaz permalink
    October 20, 2008 5:25 am

    -A strong society is one based on justice for all. Racism and discrimination is a crime.

    And racism is not embracing everything foreign at expense of your own culture and society. Got it.

    -Finland is a big country. I’m certain you will find a spot where you can enjoy these things.

    Give me one good reason why I, native, should step away from way of immigrants? There aren’t any! If you come to Finland, accept the Finnish ways of go away.

    -Finland being Finland? What about Finns who are not like you? Don’t they have a right to being part of this country?

    They are still culturally Finns. They behave like Finns. There is no single rule on being Finn, but there is cultural context in which you fit if you are Finn.

    It gives room for individuality while retaining unity of society. As opposed to multicultural hellholes where there is no single cultural context in which you can fit. Instead multiple smaller ones which are constantly in conflict.

    There is reason why through the history only societies which have maintained strong unity have created nations and empires which are strong. When they try to accept unintegrating immigration they crumble. Rome? It was strong as long as it remained Roman. When they started to import more and more different cultures inside their borders and relied on those above their own culture. It collapsed.

    Britain was strong because where the empire went, it took with it British culture. Now when UK is trying to accept every culture, it is getting weaker and weaker. Plagued with internal division.

    China became major power ages ago in history only when it was unified and era of warring states came to an end. Replaced by one common Han society.

    Japan. It’s Sengoku Jidai being era when it was weakest due to divisions in society (not culturally but due to social situation). Once it was unified under one banner, era of stability and peace ensued.

    Through history we see one undeniable fact. Unity brings strength. Division causes conflict and pain. Unity in society and culture.

    USA today is slipping down, because it is losing it’s unity. It is fighting against itself, no longer able to take advantage from benefits it gained from being only large industrial power intact at end of WW2.

  49. Enrique permalink
    October 22, 2008 1:21 am

    -And racism is not embracing everything foreign at expense of your own culture and society. Got it.

    OK, be a bigot.

    –Give me one good reason why I, native, should step away from way of immigrants? There aren’t any! If you come to Finland, accept the Finnish ways of go away.

    Nobody is asking you to step away from immigrants. What is accepting the your way? Racism, discrimination and asking people to throw away their culture? Please read your comment a generation from now and see how ridiculous it is. Why should you respect other cultures? Isn’t that what we call decency, fair play that we have learned in our own homes. Or is there a standard for Finns and foreigners?

    You can go and argue as much as you want how foreigners “destroy” a culture. Imagine, Tiwaz, how many beautiful things you are losing in your life because of your myopic way of seeing people inside Finland.

  50. Tiwaz permalink
    October 22, 2008 5:23 am

    I am not losing anything!

    I travel abroad, see different cultures and enjoy what they offer.

    This does not mean I want to have their culture exported to replace my culture in my native country. Or that they would immigrate and create division and conflict in my native country by refusing to adjust to Finland and Finnish culture.

    Because there is no empty space in Finland for different cultures to grow in. This is not empty space with cultural void, everything is filled with Finnish culture.
    To import other cultures means that Finnish culture has to be pushed away to make room.

    What I call decency, is that when you move to another country you accept that you are foreigner in another country. And adjust to society and culture of THAT country, not trying to live as if you had never left your home and causing conflict with natives.

    I see how your vision of “fair” is that Finns bend over and appease immigrants. Immigrant should in your eyes do nothing, no adjusting, no integration. Live as they please. And Finns have to do all the adjusting.

    Read your own comments, think what they look like to native and Finn and realize how you are demanding some very stupid things from Finns.

    Bottom line. If you move to another country, you have to accept that you have to adjust to life in different culture with different ways and different values. If you cannot change yourself, you should not move. Because acting in way you want to courage, moving and demanding appeasement for your alien ways, is sure way to raise anger in natives who see your ungrateful and rude behavior towards THEIR, NATIVE, culture as offensive.

    What my parents taught me at home, was that when I go to someone elses home/country… I must respect THEIR ways, not demand that they respect mine in THEIR HOME.

  51. Enrique permalink
    October 22, 2008 11:01 am

    –This does not mean I want to have their culture exported to replace my culture in my native country. Or that they would immigrate and create division and conflict in my native country by refusing to adjust to Finland and Finnish culture.

    I disagree. Cultures interact and take things from each other. Culture is not static or a museum piece — it changes. This is a two-way street. Look at Finns’ food habits in the last thirty years. That is caused by a change in culture. Do you remember when Finns had not even heard of pizzas three decades ago. Today it is a national food like Karjalan paisti.

    –I see how your vision of “fair” is that Finns bend over and appease immigrants.

    It is funny, but some Finns always see immigration in this light; ie something to bend down to or appease. If you state that Finns are such a united culture, why do they see outsiders in this fashion? A culture that is self-confident would see foreigners as a way to reap benefits.

    –What my parents taught me at home, was that when I go to someone elses home/country… I must respect THEIR ways, not demand that they respect mine in THEIR HOME.

    I agree but did they teach you to respect other people?

  52. Onkko permalink
    October 22, 2008 11:43 am

    “It is funny, but some Finns always see immigration in this light; ie something to bend down to or appease.”

    Because we read news. Whine about swimming/food/offending thing like betoniporsas/christmas/spring celebration…
    And if i look your precious multiculture countries.. affirmitive actions/racists quotas…

  53. Enrique permalink
    October 22, 2008 12:21 pm

    Onkko, this guy is the other side of the fanatic coin. He is as bad as those fanatics who profess the destruction of Western civilization and our way of life.

  54. Enrique permalink
    October 22, 2008 12:21 pm

    Tiwaz, dan left you a comment in “how immigrant-friendly is Finland.”

  55. Onkko permalink
    October 22, 2008 6:43 pm

    “Onkko, this guy is the other side of the fanatic coin. He is as bad as those fanatics who profess the destruction of Western civilization and our way of life.”

    So you admit immigrants are pushing their culture in here. Ok.
    Atleast you conviciently ignored other what i said.

  56. Enrique permalink
    October 22, 2008 9:16 pm

    The question is why are you so attracted to these type of people: fanatic whites who hate Muslims and Muslims who hate Westerners? Certainly these two sides of the coin are a bunch of loonies. Why not go in the middle of the road where the majority live?

  57. Tiwaz permalink
    October 23, 2008 3:30 pm

    Because majority of immigrants fail to accept that they have to change to live without conflict with majority of natives, who have every right to expect life in their native country to carry on as they like.

    In essence, natives define what is ok and what is not in their own country. Not immigrants. Immigrants have to adapt.

  58. Onkko permalink
    October 24, 2008 1:39 pm

    USA that really nice diverse country is so diverse that mailman doesnt dare to do his job.
    http://cbs2chicago.com/local/shooting.stops.mail.2.846703.html

    Ah, and lets see how diverse that place is.

    Races in Harvey:

    * Black (79.6%)
    * Hispanic (12.8%)
    * Other race (7.9%)
    * White Non-Hispanic (6.3%)
    * Two or more races (1.8%)
    * American Indian (0.7%)

    Its nice that they had civil rights movement.

  59. Enrique permalink
    October 24, 2008 7:46 pm

    What is this “races in Harvey?”

  60. November 22, 2008 6:41 pm

    Tiwaz: according to your logic, if a Finn opposes the military service act, they are still a Finn. If a naturalized foreigner also opposes the military service act, they should move out. You seem to miss the fact that they both pay taxes and, in a democratic society, both have the right to demand to live in a country that matches their personal values.

  61. Enrique permalink
    November 23, 2008 8:54 am

    Hi Martin-Éric, thank you for sharing your opinions. You make an excellent point about the right to live in a society that not only respects, but defends their way of life. This is one of the challenges of multiculturalism in Finland: how do we change our “integrate-all-in-one” practices to “integrating-all-diversely?” The integration by perkele model proposed by Tiwaz and others is ludicrous and would never work.

  62. November 23, 2008 10:59 am

    Enrique: it’s not “would” not work, it’s “does” not work. Management by perkele (or, as you put it, integration by perkele, too) is already proven to be a failure everywhere, including at the Finnish army, where a study has been published pointing out that while in times of crisis, sacrifices must be made that demand blind obedience to even the scariest orders, that same method simply doesn’t work well in times of peace and is completely misadapted to civilian life.

    This being said, I still think that we need to avoid a situation where (to take an extreme example) e.g. Muslims would demand to be judged by the Sharia in Finland or for their daughters to be dispensed from e.g. gym classes on the basis that their religion forbids any man other than their father or husband from seeing anything. Just as foreigners visiting e.g. Iran are expected to fit in, foreigners visiting the Christian world should be expected to at least adapt enough to not have to constantly veto exceptions to this or that. Let them have their Mosques, just as long as they serve in the army, do their gym class and don’t kill their daughters for having spoken to a male classmate.

  63. November 23, 2008 11:03 am

    An article that describes my point well:

    http://www.uutiskynnys.fi/uutiset/ulkomaat/2008/quebec-rupeaa-vaatimaan-maahantulijoita-sitoutumaan-yhteisiin-arvoihin

    See the one linked at the bottom, too.

  64. Tiwaz permalink
    November 24, 2008 6:51 am

    Martin:”according to your logic, if a Finn opposes the military service act, they are still a Finn. If a naturalized foreigner also opposes the military service act, they should move out. You seem to miss the fact that they both pay taxes and, in a democratic society, both have the right to demand to live in a country that matches their personal values.”

    Finn is Finn. Yes, even if they oppose military service. They still adhere to Finnish culture in their life. It is not question about absolutes, but with small margins. Finnish culture is approximation on principles and values held by society as whole. You may be off this in field or two and remain Finnish. But foreigners are usually off in huge amount of things.

    Naturalized immigrant has no right to demand to live in Finland which adheres to his/her original cultural values. They came to Finland, chose to be in Finland. Finland did not come to them and force them to live in Finland.

    So, if foreigner cannot handle living in Finland as it is, F*** off in simple terms. Find place where you can live without demanding it to change to fit you.
    You are free to move. Paying tax money does not make you entitled to demand that Finland changes to appease your cultural norms, or that Finns appease your cultural norms.

    In Finland, the Finnish way. Elsewhere, the elsewhere way.

  65. November 24, 2008 6:57 am

    Tiwaz: even Finnish culture is a constantly moving target. As you cannot seem to grasp this simple concept, you can f*** off and go back to your Uralic homeland where you belong.

  66. Enrique permalink
    November 24, 2008 8:21 am

    –So, if foreigner cannot handle living in Finland as it is, F*** off in simple terms. Find place where you can live without demanding it to change to fit you.

    The question can be turned to you too: If you don´t like other people who do not fit your narrow world why don´t you move to the North Pole or the Central Russia where the Finnish language has its roots? I will not be as rude as you and tell you to find a job with sex and travel, or f*** off.

  67. Enrique permalink
    November 24, 2008 8:23 am

    Twiaz is a “Norwegian pseudo god” who waves his magic wand and decides who can stay and live in this country. It is only one of his many “ethnic” pipedreams.

  68. Enrique permalink
    November 24, 2008 8:25 am

    –In Finland, the Finnish way. Elsewhere, the elsewhere way.

    In Finland, the Finnish way, which means respect for other cultures and embracing diversity.

  69. Tiwaz permalink
    November 24, 2008 8:59 am

    “even Finnish culture is a constantly moving target. As you cannot seem to grasp this simple concept, you can f*** off and go back to your Uralic homeland where you belong.”

    Yes, but it moves as FINNS want it, and at extremely slow pace. Odds of you succeeding in learning to follow “old” cultural norms are nil. And even if it moves. Who cares! It is still FINNISH culture. If you can’t catch up with change like natives do. F*** OFF! Clearly you Martin cannot grasp this. It does not matter where it travels according to whims of Finns (who are only ones with right to decide what Finnish culture is) it is still one and only thing that matters in Finland culturally.

    By the way, Finns are not from Urals. Recent studies hint that we as people evolved right here. This is common mistake you people make. Finns, Finnish and Finnish culture belong to Finland. Nowhere else. You foreigners, go where you came from if you can’t handle living according to local principles.

    Finnish way is not to have other cultures present. Finnish way is that there is Finland, with Finnish language and Finnish culture. As we see with steady drop in amount of Swedish speakers in Finland over decades.

    Stop trying to push your argentinian values to Finland Enrique. If you so desperately want to live in argentinian society, move to Argentina.

  70. Tiwaz permalink
    November 24, 2008 9:02 am

    I simply cannot understand how someone can be so stupid, ignorant and/or arrogant that they expect that Finns in Finland would have to adjust to their foreign cultural norms.

    It is as if you foreigners think that you are some great colonial lords who have descended upon the natives as act of mercy to enlighten us with your own culture which we should immediately embrace. And when we tell you that we prefer to live in our country according to our own culture you whine that WE are racist.

  71. Enrique permalink
    November 24, 2008 9:17 am

    –By the way, Finns are not from Urals. Recent studies hint that we as people evolved right here. This is common mistake you people make. Finns, Finnish and Finnish culture belong to Finland. Nowhere else. You foreigners, go where you came from if you can’t handle living according to local principles.

    The Fenno-Ugric common language comes from somewhere in Siberia. As you know, it is spoken by Finns, Saami, Hungarians and the Estonians. Finns MIGRATED from these regions to modern Finland. Finns have MIXED a lot with western Europeans.

    Culture is not as narrow as you think. It has a room for a lot of diversity. If you want to be part of the old culture, go right ahead. It is your choice. Argentinean values? What is that? You talk about cultures as if you knew and are pretend to be the gate-keeper of the Finns. No, Tiwaz, they are not Argentinean values — they are my values.

    By the way, during the Vietnam War, there was a famous slogan: America: Love it or leave it. And another one: America: Change it or lose it.

  72. Tiwaz permalink
    November 24, 2008 9:33 am

    Enrique, you humiliate yourself with your stupidity.

    Of course humans migrated to Finland, humans have evolved in Africa, but Finns are not coming from Siberia.

    Educate thyself, of Finns from Wikipedia:

    “Recently, mitochondrial (female lineage) and Y-chromosomal (male lineage) DNA-markers have been started to use in tracing back the history of human populations. As for the paternal and maternal genetic lineages of Finnish people and other peoples, see, e.g., the National Geographic Genographic Project and the Suomi DNA-projekti. In essence, the types of mtDNA markers of Finnish people do not differ from those of other European ethnicities.[33] Haplogroup U5, for example, estimated to be the oldest mtDNA haplogroup in Europe and found in the whole of Europe at a low frequency, seems to be found in significantly higher levels among Finns, Estonians and the Sami.[34]

    With regard to the Y-chromosome, besides the markers found in other European populations, the haplotype N3 appears in Finland at clearly higher frequencies than in most other European populations. Haplotype N3 is a subgroup of the haplogroup N (Y-DNA) distributed across northern Eurasia and estimated in a recent study to be 10,000–20,000 years old and suggested to have entered Europe about 12,000–14,000 years ago from Asia.[35]

    According to an earlier study conducted by four scientists, including Cavalli-Sforza LL:

    Principal coordinate analysis shows that Lapps/Sami are almost exactly intermediate between people located geographically near the Ural mountains and speaking Uralic languages, and central and northern Europeans. Hungarians and Finns are definitely closer to Europeans. An analysis of genetic admixture between Uralic and European ancestors shows that Lapps/Sami are slightly more than 50% European, Hungarians are 87% European, and Finns are 90% European. There is basic agreement between these conclusions and historical data on Hungary. Less is known about Finns and very little about Lapps/Sami.[36]

    According to recent autosomal (genomewide, 10,000 markers instead of few looked at Y-DNA and MtDNA-studies) give distinct picture of Finnish genes. Finns are a genetic isolate. It could be said that all other Europeans have Finnish genes but Finns don’t have all the genes found in other Europeans. Finns show very little if any Mediterranean and African genes but on the other hand almost 10% Finnish genes seem to be shared with some Siberian populations. Nevertheless more than 80% of Finnish genes are from single ancient North-European population, while most Europeans are admixture of 3 or more principal components.[37]”

    In short, Finnish genome is not different from European. Europeans share genome with Finns, but Finns do not share much genome with Europeans. So we could say that Finns were there already when OTHERS came around. As this would explain how Finnish genome ended up in other people but Finns in current Finland have remained separate in genetic sense.

    And culture is what it is. Values, principles and traditions shared by collective society. Finnish values, principles and traditions shared collectively by Finnish people are very real, very existing and very much limited. Culture is not some all embracing thing of valuing everything equally like multicultural imbeciles assume. Culture is very limited, as it was formed to give society method of interaction. It is there to create identity, feeling of belonging. Trying to claim everything as part of your culture is same as having no culture at all.

    Finnish culture has diversity in it, but Finnish diversity. It has little variations, subcultures so to say, like ones between Savo and Häme. But your vision of diversity is not Finnish. There is no Argentinian subculture in Finnish culture.

    Argentinian cultural values do not belong to Finnish society or culture.

    Your values ARE Argentinian values. You grew up in that place, everything you learned in your youth is marked by influence of Argentinian society and culture. Only idiot claims they are not built up by surroundings of their youth. But then again, when it comes to cultures I have rather little respect for your knowledge on issue. Your values are Argentinian values since you are Argentinian.

    Finns have undergone ethnogenesis in Finland, nowhere else. Finns are native to Finland, nowhere else.

    Go learn what ethnogenesis means and educate yourself a little.

  73. Tiwaz permalink
    November 24, 2008 9:38 am

    I am no gatekeeper, I am Finn. And most Finns agree with me. We like Finland as Finland. It is our home, it is our culture, it is our identity.

    We do not appriciate yours, or of those flowerhatted ladies or academic idiots trying to destroy our culture, identity and society. Because it is fashionable to think everything foreign is better.

    I simply say what most Finns think. If you were smart, you would pay heed to it and change the way you act and think before Finns finally stand up for ourselves and things get ugly.

    You are trying to create division into this society. And you do it by attacking Finnish society and culture, trying to push foreign societies and cultures to replace Finnish one. That division will lead to conflict. Divisions always do, I see you fail to deny this fact. You try to argue with emotion, not logic and facts. Because you know facts are against you…

    And when that conflict comes, cultural purge you could say, it will not be Finns who are underdogs.

  74. Enrique permalink
    November 24, 2008 9:47 am

    –Finns have undergone ethnogenesis in Finland, nowhere else. Finns are native to Finland, nowhere else.

    Wow, what a physical anthropologist/social Darwinist (?) you are! Maybe you should enlighten the scientific world with your knowledge. The missing link is not in Africa, but it has been hiding in Finland all the time. Thank you for your insight! Why don´t you write a book and tell us how the Finns don´t emigrate (sic!) and have lived in a time warp for millions of years?

    Thank you for enlightening us.

  75. Enrique permalink
    November 24, 2008 9:50 am

    -I am no gatekeeper, I am Finn. And most Finns agree with me. We like Finland as Finland. It is our home, it is our culture, it is our identity.

    So?

    –We do not appriciate yours, or of those flowerhatted ladies or academic idiots trying to destroy our culture, identity and society. Because it is fashionable to think everything foreign is better.

    Lighten up, Tiwaz. You are losing your temper. Go and read some white power sights and you will be surprised how similar their attitudes are with yours. Your information on cultures is antiquated.

  76. Enrique permalink
    November 24, 2008 9:52 am

    -I am no gatekeeper, I am Finn. And most Finns agree with me. We like Finland as Finland. It is our home, it is our culture, it is our identity.

    So?

    –We do not appriciate yours, or of those flowerhatted ladies or academic idiots trying to destroy our culture, identity and society. Because it is fashionable to think everything foreign is better.

    Lighten up, Tiwaz. You are losing your temper. Go and read some white power sights and you will be surprised how similar their attitudes are with yours. Your information on cultures is antiquated.

  77. Tiwaz permalink
    November 24, 2008 11:00 am

    Enrique… You are more stupid than you think. Ethnogenesis and missing link are nowhere related. As said, study something. Something FACTUAL.

    And stop your delusions about multiculturalism. And above all else, your racist desires of replacing Finnish culture.

    You are the racist here, not me. I do not care how you live in your own multicultural south american hellhole. Just do not come here and preach how we should live in our country and what we should accept.

    In Finland, Finnish way or highway. Best solution for everyone. Culture is there because it has function. That function is not fulfilled by multicultural idiocy, because there no longer is common culture to function as ground rules of behavior and interaction.

    Immigrant who thinks they can keep on behaving like they did at home are idiots. That’s it. Presuming that acting according to cultural norms of some wahabbistan hellhole from Middle East is acceptable in Finland is act of idiot. And advocating such action has led in Finland and all over western world with huge problem of sex offenders of Middle Eastern origin being vastly overrepresented in crime.

    Same way, idiot who wanders into Finland and presumes to get a nice job without language skills and expressing behavior which in Finnish culture is sign of imbecile, insane or just annoying is asking to end up unemployed.

  78. Enrique permalink
    November 24, 2008 11:39 am

    Sorry, Tiwaz, you are such “an ethnic genius” that you go around being rude by calling people “stupid” and “racist.”

    You are so insecure about yourself and your culture that your knee-jerk reaction is to build walls. Go right ahead.

    However, when you speak of ethnogenesis we are talking about ethnic differences but it does not apply to cultural ones. If you would study your facts, you would understand that missing link means a period millions of years ago when an arboreal primate started to become terrestrial, which started our evolutionary separation from primates such as chimps. You claim that “Finns are native to Finland, nowhere else.” Wrong. All of us come from different places and have evolved thanks to people who did not build walls around themselves like you.

  79. Enrique permalink
    November 24, 2008 11:47 am

    –And when that conflict comes, cultural purge you could say, it will not be Finns who are underdogs.

    Come on! You must be joking? Get real.

  80. Enrique permalink
    November 24, 2008 12:01 pm

    Tiwaz, your xenophobic views are not unique. They can be found in many countries like at this link: http://www.micetrap.net/

  81. Tiwaz permalink
    November 24, 2008 12:23 pm

    Where do you think Finnish culture came from? Santa Claus? It was produce of same process which created Finnish ethnicity.

    You cannot separate ethnicity, culture and language when speaking of Finns. Only idiot presumes they are not connected to one another.

    Finns have only evolved in Finland. You fail to grasp that group which diverted into Estonians and Finns came from elsewhere, but they were not Finns.

    They evolved, culturally, in ethnogenesis, into Finns. Distinct ethnicity with distinct culture and distinct language. And on southern shore there came to existence Estonians.

    This took place thousands of years ago. Finns have never existed outside Finland.

    And I am not joking. Look around you! Only fool does not see the trend that natives all over Europe are getting fed up with immigrant whining, which takes place everywhere. Not to mention crimes going through the roof when someone from wahabbist culture thinks that in Europe or Australia it is ok to put woman in place through application of rape.

    Here is pearl of that cultural thinking, from mouth of Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali:

    “If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it … whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meat?

    The uncovered meat is the problem.”

    This is extreme representation of course, some of his cultural/religious brethen have disowned him. But it does not change fact that people of that cultural background are overrepresented in rape statistics. And this comment came regarding gangrape of two women in Australia!

    But we should understand other cultures. So let’s lock our women into their homes in Finland, throw potato sack over them to cover them and keep them in check! For that is way of multiculturalism where every culture but native one is to be respected and followed.

    Sorry, people do not like foreigners coming to their homes or countries, even if they do not practice act of rape, and come trying to make people change their way of life and culture.

    Immigrants must understand that they came to another country, and that immigrant must change and accept the way of life in that country.

    You, Enrique, are racist and arrogant in your expectation that Finns must adjust to immigrants. We are natives, this is our home. Our rules apply in our home.
    Sadly, too few immigrants have the brains to grasp this. They want to live like they lived at home. To hell with Finnish culture! Their imported culture is so much superior!

    And when Finns treat them like such rude and badly behaved people are treated in Finnish culture… These foreigners scream racism and start causing trouble. And not just in Finland… But all over the world.

    Do you really think such situation will last long? Europe is not some former colonial land conquered by slaughtering natives in last couple centuries. Europe was there when nobody but those natives who were to be slaughtered knew about what was to be named America. By Europeans.

    You cannot point out at South-America and say how it works, because it is nothing like Europe. You guys do not have society which goes back centuries or millenias like countries of Europe.

    Apples and oranges. If those American countries which lack the baggage of history cannot make more than one possibly functional multicultural society after slaughtering the natives… How do you think it will ever work in Europe where natives are alive and kicking?

    It doesn’t. Multiculturalism might work somewhere, might being generous, but it cannot work in Europe. It is not magic wand which solves anything.

    Different place, different solutions required. Europe requires integration to society and respect of native culture and tradition. Because else there WILL be purge. If you bothered to read news, you would notice that attitudes against unintegrating immigrants are toughening all over EU.

    It is first sign of things to come.

  82. Enrique permalink
    November 24, 2008 1:23 pm

    –You cannot separate ethnicity, culture and language when speaking of Finns. Only idiot presumes they are not connected to one another.

    Why can´t I separate ethnicity? Certainly if you had sex with a black woman you would have a child. But do you use ethnicity to state how different you are?

    –Here is pearl of that cultural thinking, from mouth of Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali:

    “If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it … whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meat?

    A: Uncovered meat is uncovered meat. Culture is culture.

  83. Enrique permalink
    November 24, 2008 1:36 pm

    –Sorry, people do not like foreigners coming to their homes or countries, even if they do not practice act of rape, and come trying to make people change their way of life and culture.

    Finnish men also carry acts of rape. What happened in Seinjäjoki, for example. I could use a lot of these examples but I won´t because I don´t like to generalize about cultures.

    –You, Enrique, are racist and arrogant in your expectation that Finns must adjust to immigrants. We are natives, this is our home. Our rules apply in our home.

    Why don´t you stick to your arguments instead of throwing low punches? Your arguments fly out of the window when you insult others.

    –You cannot point out at South-America and say how it works, because it is nothing like Europe. You guys do not have society which goes back centuries or millenias like countries of Europe.

    Now I know you are a chronic social Darwanist. In the first place, and if you did not know, most of the Latin Americans are of European origin. Moreover, you forgot to mention cultures such as the Mayas, Aztecs, Incas, Chimus, Icas, Aymaras and a very long list of others.

    –Apples and oranges. If those American countries which lack the baggage of history cannot make more than one possibly functional multicultural society after slaughtering the natives… How do you think it will ever work in Europe where natives are alive and kicking?

    You belong to a modern society. Welcome to hybridculture.

  84. Enrique permalink
    November 24, 2008 1:40 pm

    –It doesn’t. Multiculturalism might work somewhere, might being generous, but it cannot work in Europe. It is not magic wand which solves anything.

    This is the first time you admit that multiculturalism works in some parts of the world. Multiculturalism is Europe´s ticket to end outlandish wars like the one waged by Nazi Germany on the pretext of race and blood. Read your history closer.

    –Because else there WILL be purge. If you bothered to read news, you would notice that attitudes against unintegrating immigrants are toughening all over EU. It is first sign of things to come.

    Nah, I think people like you will end up behind bars. Our justice system is strong enough to handle people who may want to take the law in their hands. Be it a European or a person from any other national background.

  85. Tiwaz permalink
    November 24, 2008 2:54 pm

    -Why can´t I separate ethnicity? Certainly if you had sex with a black woman you would have a child. But do you use ethnicity to state how different you are?

    Because ethnicity does not mean just race. Ethnicity of Finns is different from being white on skin.

    -A: Uncovered meat is uncovered meat. Culture is culture.

    I see you try to avoid issue. Their culture tells that there must be no uncovered meat, ie women not wearing potato sack. They use any means to force this view on everyone.
    You again fail to face the facts, no surprise.

    -Finnish men also carry acts of rape. What happened in Seinjäjoki, for example. I could use a lot of these examples but I won´t because I don´t like to generalize about cultures.

    Finnish men are responsible for majority of rapes, yes. But not when put into proper perspective. Muslims form something like 2% of population of Finland. But in rapes, their responsibility rises to double digits.

    When put in proper perspective, culturally different muslims are per 1000 people far more likely to rape than native Finns of Finnish culture.

    -Why don´t you stick to your arguments instead of throwing low punches? Your arguments fly out of the window when you insult others

    I do. You are arrogant racist and I stick to that argument. I see you make no factual arguments at all. Most likely because you know you have no facts to stand up for you. Instead you try to avoid issues, dance around them and claim I am nazi or racist.

    -Now I know you are a chronic social Darwanist. In the first place, and if you did not know, most of the Latin Americans are of European origin. Moreover, you forgot to mention cultures such as the Mayas, Aztecs, Incas, Chimus, Icas, Aymaras and a very long list of others.

    Those cultures you mention last are… DEAD! They were natives, who no longer live in their native lands because they were wiped out to build your multicultural hellholes. What you also fail to address is that those Latin Americans are of varied European origin and partially slaves. Multicultural as you say.

    -You belong to a modern society. Welcome to hybridculture

    Modern society does not equal multicultural. Finland is modern WITHOUT multicultural society. Multicultural society is invitation of disaster.

    -This is the first time you admit that multiculturalism works in some parts of the world. Multiculturalism is Europe´s ticket to end outlandish wars like the one waged by Nazi Germany on the pretext of race and blood. Read your history closer.

    Here you show your stupidity again. Multiculturalism is Europe’s ticket to next World War. Though it more likely is European War of Purification or European Civil War. Because your multicultural idiocy creates rifts, divisions and problems which do not exist in current societies. Or did not until some idiots decided that multiculturalism is worth trying. Failing to read history and notice that… Shock and horror… Multicultural societies in long term die out.

    Multiculturalism works only in in sense that some nations trying it in Americas are yet to collapse. But regardless, they are all riddled with crime, divisions, internal problems, instability and so forth. Multiculturalism is not functional.

    Let’s compare your multicultural world of Argentina… Which you want to present to us as desirable solution. It has fraction of GDP of Finland. It fails to score at top of PISA-ranking. And it’s greatest achievement in economy is to bitch that FINNISH forestry corporations decided to build their pulp factory on wrong side of river. Argentina is living off as 3rd world hellhole. It has even had goddamn MILITARY JUNTA running it. Compared to democratic society of Finland, which has produced Nokia (only dominating global cellphone markets) and scores at top of PISA test while producing some of the best bleeding edge tech in the world.

    Now why in hell I would want to switch THAT, to multiculturalism which has as it’s finest achievement immigrants who try to leave their native country to come to other country to bitch and whine to natives how the natives, who have far more wealthy and functional country, do not live right?

    Multicultural countries are one or more of following:
    Poor, divided, unstable and/or in conflict.

    European (western) nations, monocultural, tend to be following:
    Stable, rich, well educated at no conflict.

    Conflicts after WW2 in Europe are due to attempts of forcing multiculturalism. It should show how multiculturalism does not work. It never has in long run, and still does not.

    -Nah, I think people like you will end up behind bars. Our justice system is strong enough to handle people who may want to take the law in their hands. Be it a European or a person from any other national background.

    Except law represents will of the people. When Finnish people are fed up, laws will represent it. And besides, in civil wars and similar laws are abandoned anyway. And something like that is inevitable result of trying multiculturalism. Because it is abomination to human society. Only weak society gives up it’s territory without a fight. And Finns have not survived the centuries of being kicked from both east and west by being weak.

    If anyone has to read history, it is you. Because when you read it, you find tales of multicultural failures. Even in modern history. Or how do you explain Rwanda, Somalia and Yugoslavia? You try to say they were because they were not multicultural, but only idiot says that. Exact issue was that they WERE mixture of cultures which did not get along, because none of them wanted to keel over and die and let another dominate. So naturally came conflict. Conflict and multicultural situation are inevitable pair, so teaches us history.

  86. Enrique permalink
    November 24, 2008 3:35 pm

    –Because ethnicity does not mean just race. Ethnicity of Finns is different from being white on skin.

    Antiquated. Passé.

    –I see you try to avoid issue. Their culture tells that there must be no uncovered meat, ie women not wearing potato sack. They use any means to force this view on everyone.

    I´m not avoiding anything. I don´t look for simpleton answers to complex questions.

    –Finnish men are responsible for majority of rapes, yes. But not when put into proper perspective. Muslims form something like 2% of population of Finland. But in rapes, their responsibility rises to double digits.

    OK, so in your worldview all Muslims are a bunch of rapists.

    –When put in proper perspective, culturally different muslims are per 1000 people far more likely to rape than native Finns of Finnish culture.

    Here you go with your strange theories. So Muslims are potential rapists?! If you look at what the US has done to Iraq, then the all “white” men are a bunch of murderers. Your thinking is lopsided.

    –Let’s compare your multicultural world of Argentina… Which you want to present to us as desirable solution. It has fraction of GDP of Finland. It fails to score at top of PISA-ranking. blabla

    So? Big deal. What does that prove? Multicultural societies are stupider than those that are not?

    –Now why in hell I would want to switch THAT, to multiculturalism which has as it’s finest achievement immigrants who try to leave their native country to come to other country to bitch and whine to natives how the natives, who have far more wealthy and functional country, do not live right?

    Your argument is flawed. Despite the horrors of the military regime, it does not mean that Argentina had such a government because it was multicultural. There are bigger powers that wield their interests on other countries. It´s a bit like the USSR did with Finland after the war.

    –Multicultural countries are one or more of following: Poor, divided, unstable and/or in conflict.

    Since you do not condemn what happened under Nazi Germany but blame it on the Jews for not “being Germans,” see what happened when a bunch of loonies tried to prove they were the superior race? That´s far worse than a military dictatorship in a country like Argentina.

    –European (western) nations, monocultural, tend to be following: Stable, rich, well educated at no conflict.

    This is a myth. There is no such thing as monocultural. Only cultures that have subjected and destroyed others.

    –Except law represents will of the people. When Finnish people are fed up, laws will represent it.

    Yes, you are looking forward to 1933 Germany. But it won´t happen.

    I´m saddened that a man can have such a narrow and frightful view of other cultures. You can´t imagine how much of life´s beauty you are missing because of your narrow-mindedness. It is your loss not anyone else´s.

  87. Enrique permalink
    November 24, 2008 3:39 pm

    –If anyone has to read history, it is you. Because when you read it, you find tales of multicultural failures.

    They are not multicultural failures they are crazy scared people who destroyed others because they were different. Nazi Germany is the best example as is the former Yugoslavia. If you were in charge of the Finnish police force or became president, this country would end up in one shot from being a democracy to a dictatorship and end up like Berlin 1945.

  88. Tiwaz permalink
    November 25, 2008 11:40 am

    -They are not multicultural failures they are crazy scared people who destroyed others because they were different. Nazi Germany is the best example as is the former Yugoslavia. If you were in charge of the Finnish police force or became president, this country would end up in one shot from being a democracy to a dictatorship and end up like Berlin 1945.

    Result is same, multicultrual societies die out because they cannot survive in long term. Show me multicultural society which has existed for longer than 500 years… You won’t find one!

    Either they are not multicultural, meaning one culture dominates and determines the acceptable course of action and thus it is not multicultural. Or they died out in civil wars!

    Only idiot believes in multiculturalism.

    -I´m saddened that a man can have such a narrow and frightful view of other cultures. You can´t imagine how much of life´s beauty you are missing because of your narrow-mindedness. It is your loss not anyone else´s.

    My loss is if you and your kind manage to have your way and destroy this country. I do not fear other cultures. They are free to do as they please in their own home. When you come to Finland, I expect you to accept that here things are done according to Finnish culture. Either accept it, or f*** off.

    Respecting natives and their culture must come first.
    But then again, you are descendant of those who slaughtered natives and their culture to take their land. Some person you are to talk about me being nazi.

    -This is a myth. There is no such thing as monocultural. Only cultures that have subjected and destroyed others.

    And here you are, wanting to destroy my culture. You expect me to roll over and die like native people of Argentina? Sorry, I’ll fight back!

    -Since you do not condemn what happened under Nazi Germany but blame it on the Jews for not “being Germans,” see what happened when a bunch of loonies tried to prove they were the superior race? That´s far worse than a military dictatorship in a country like Argentina.

    Where do I say I do not condemn it? I condemn it, but also point out that without division in society it would have been impossible to take place! Something your limited grasp clearly is unable to handle.

    -I´m not avoiding anything. I don´t look for simpleton answers to complex questions.

    Actually, you are the simpleton from us. Now, go ahead and show me why muslims are overrepresented in rape statistics in western world if there is nothing wrong with their culture… Go on!

    Or do you try to deny that there is problem? Close your eyes and try to pretend that it does not take place? How very intelligent of you.

    -So? Big deal. What does that prove? Multicultural societies are stupider than those that are not?

    It proves multicultural societies are failures, they cannot compete with monocultural societies because they lack the unity to push forward. Instead spending their time bickering and fighting one another. With occasional civil war, military junta or general slaughter.

    -Your argument is flawed. Despite the horrors of the military regime, it does not mean that Argentina had such a government because it was multicultural. There are bigger powers that wield their interests on other countries. It´s a bit like the USSR did with Finland after the war.

    Read history. Finland chose it’s own leaders, and we never had military junta.
    You guys had it because your society was so fractured that it was possible for military to take over. Because your society is built on failure called multiculturalism.

    -OK, so in your worldview all Muslims are a bunch of rapists.

    I have proof on my side. Muslims in western world are overrepresented in rape statistics. Thus, muslims when introduced to western culture have higher tendency to rape than natives of these cultures. It is called cultural conflict. Something you try to pretend does not exist.

    -Antiquated. Passé.

    Reality. You try to pretend you are so progressive and liberal. But in reality you are just sad little fool who thinks he is cool when he speaks of multiculturalism as good thing. Problem is, you haven’t got a fu**** clue of what that really is and causes! You just preach how multiculturalism is good, and try to close your eyes to reality when it kicks your worldview to pieces every day.

  89. Enrique permalink
    November 25, 2008 12:40 pm

    –I expect you to accept that here things are done according to Finnish culture. Either accept it, or f*** off.

    Your attitude speaks a thousand words. Who are you to impose your model on others and, on top of it to insult people. Wow, I commend your “integration” skills. I am happy that others can see them so they know that part of this society comprises of myopic ideas such as yours.

    –It proves multicultural societies are failures, they cannot compete with monocultural societies because they lack the unity to push forward.

    I think your arguments are ridiculous and naive. Humankind has always mixed genetically with others. We are all part of a world united by different cultures and people. Even if this may shock you, your/our ancestors were once a bunch of monkey-looking bipedal primates roaming in Africa. Thanks to their reproduction and their survival techniques, they evolved into you. Or are you still claiming that they were Finns when they climbed down the trees?

    –Problem is, you haven’t got a fu**** clue of what that really is and causes!

    Hey, build a time machine and go back to the “good old days” of 1933-45. I am sure your “racial” ideas will find a perfect home.

  90. Tiwaz permalink
    November 25, 2008 1:11 pm

    -Your attitude speaks a thousand words. Who are you to impose your model on others and, on top of it to insult people. Wow, I commend your “integration” skills. I am happy that others can see them so they know that part of this society comprises of myopic ideas such as yours.

    Native. I respect culture of foreign country when I go there. I try to act according to their norms where possible, or avoid violating them.

    It is being polite and respectful.

    I do not do what you do, go to other countries, bitch and whine and tell them how they should live. That is not polite, it is acting like an a****.

    -I think your arguments are ridiculous and naive. Humankind has always mixed genetically with others. We are all part of a world united by different cultures and people. Even if this may shock you, your/our ancestors were once a bunch of monkey-looking bipedal primates roaming in Africa. Thanks to their reproduction and their survival techniques, they evolved into you. Or are you still claiming that they were Finns when they climbed down the trees?

    And humans have always formed groups which are tied together to succeed against other humans. And Finns have never lived anywhere but in Finland. I guess you do not grasp that there were no Finns prior to Finland.

    And we are speaking of culture. People have cultural identity, it defines what they consider appropriate and what not. It has nothing to do with genetics.

    It defines us. And cultural conflict is real. Different cultures come with different values. If these values collide, we have conflict. And cultures rarely have same values, else they would not be different cultures.

    You, sir, are an i**** who cannot tell apart culture, race and genetics.

  91. Enrique permalink
    November 25, 2008 2:17 pm

    –You, sir, are an idiot who cannot tell apart culture, race and genetics.

    I´ll just let the people read your comments and allow them to decide who is who. You see, I do not go around using “f” or “a” words to describe your repulsive ideas. Because I believe in democracy, I even think people with antiquated ideas drenched in social Darwinism/historical evolutionism should have an opportunity to bring them forth.

    I think the problem derives from education. Nobody every taught you better. What right do you have to go insulting people and force them on top of this to adapt to your narrow view as if you were some
    tin-pot dictator? I think you have crossed the line and are now obnoxious.

    You can insult me with your “intelligence” but do not call me names.

  92. Tiwaz permalink
    November 25, 2008 7:05 pm

    -I´ll just let the people read your comments and allow them to decide who is who. You see, I do not go around using “f” or “a” words to describe your repulsive ideas. Because I believe in democracy, I even think people with antiquated ideas drenched in social Darwinism/historical evolutionism should have an opportunity to bring them forth.

    Tell me, how is it antiquated that those who can survive, survive. And those who are not capable of handling adverse situation… Die away.

    It is not antiquated. It is reality. Adapt or die is natural law, which human cannot avoid. We have learned new ways to adapt, but we still must adapt to survive.
    This is true for societies as well. Those which are torn apart by internal division will not survive. They are weak.

    You, have repeatedly failed to present anything to support your claim of multicultural excellence. Your examples of attempts for multiculturalism are nations which I would not use as an example except if I wanted to know how NOT to create a nation and society.

    I am more likely more educated than you. I just do not beat around the bush. I take truth as it is revealed by evidence and facts. I do not sugarcoat it or try to make you feel better about your delusion.

    Go on. I challenge you to show some evidence to support your multiculturalism.

    I have given you this challenge before, and you avoided meeting it.

    You may start by coming up with explanation on why muslims are overrepresented in rape statistics in western world and why it is not because their cultural ways are incompatible with western world.

    Your very attitude insults me and my grandfathers who fought to keep this country free and Finnish. Now you expect us to lay down that which has been purchased with blood and turn over our country to foreigners without asking them to respect Finnish values, Finnish tradition and Finnish culture. Instead demanding us, natives to appease their foreign values, foreign tradition and foreign culture.

    And you act surprised that Finns resent you and your ideas to the core…

  93. Enrique permalink
    November 25, 2008 8:18 pm

    –You, have repeatedly failed to present anything to support your claim of multicultural excellence. Your examples of attempts for multiculturalism are nations which I would not use as an example except if I wanted to know how NOT to create a nation and society.

    You are too narrow-minded and exclusive in your perceptions of society. That is your right to think that way. However, I have traveled the world and lived in many countries and enjoy that type of diversity. For me, it is the normalest thing in the world. I can go to a small Finnish village and savor its culture in the same way as being in a huge city. That is what multiculturalism, or living among many cultures has taught me.

    If you resent my ideas, then you resent everything that is beautiful in this world: cultural diversity and people living together in respect. Is that too much to ask?

  94. Tiwaz permalink
    November 26, 2008 5:16 am

    -You are too narrow-minded and exclusive in your perceptions of society. That is your right to think that way. However, I have traveled the world and lived in many countries and enjoy that type of diversity. For me, it is the normalest thing in the world. I can go to a small Finnish village and savor its culture in the same way as being in a huge city. That is what multiculturalism, or living among many cultures has taught me.

    Great. So go elsewhere.
    I have travelled too. Seen a lot. Rather enjoyed the different cultures too. But I would NEVER think that I have right to go to another country and whine about their culture and demand them to follow MY cultural norms or whine that natives are racist when they give their perfectly normal cultural response to my misbehavior, if there is any.

    -If you resent my ideas, then you resent everything that is beautiful in this world: cultural diversity and people living together in respect. Is that too much to ask?

    Sounds so pretty… Tell me then, why I can from top of my head come up with at least half a dozen cases where this “diversity” is exactly nothing like respect? How history teaches that attempting to forge such diversity riddled society is source of suffering and murder?

    Stop living with your head in the clouds and live in REAL world. Here cultures do not get along. More differences the cultures have, more likely they are to come at odds violently.

    That is why it is imperative for immigrant to adjust their way to act to LOCAL cultural standard, not expect that they can keep living as if they had never left their home.
    THAT is why muslims are overrepresented in rape statistics. Many of them do not do that adjustment, they just see women who are, according to their cultural context, dressed in way which makes the women to be blamed for ending up raped. They do not respect FINNISH culture, or western in general, which says that woman have every right to dress as they please.

    Do you grasp that your multicultural “heavens” are pisspoor, pathetically underdeveloped and riddled with crime compared to Finland? Why would I want to import such failure of society into Finland, instead of telling those who think living in Finland is better than living elsewhere to get used to FINNISH way to do things?

    Multiculturalism can to some limit work if there is no difference between cultures. That is why Canada was such happyhappyland for long time. Less cultural differences to cause major rifts. When they started to receive more and more people from totally different cultural background, problems started to appear. Those people were told they did not have to adjust to Canadian society. So instead they imported their own society with them, and conflict resulted.

    Failures of multicultural society are warning sign. But you refuse to see them.

    Now, how about you explaining why muslims are overrepresented in rape statistics in western world if all cultures live happily together always and forever?

    Are you implying they are genetically inferior or faulty?

    Problem with you, Enrique, is that you are blinded by your idealism. You see the, admittably noble, ideal of multiculturalism. But you fail to understand that your dream and real world are different things. In real world we have to deal with realities and their limitations. I have dream of bridge built with feathers. Beautiful, stunning dream. But it is not practical. Real world comes in and crushes this dream by facts. Try studying facts of cultural conflict and then think why it is that multicultural societies fail to prosper like ones where there is one culture which defines what goes and what does not.

    Because multicultural ones spend most of their energy and resources fighting one another. Because cultures are not by and large able to live happily as equals inside same borders. One must dominate, or else every culture fights to dominate that place. And if dominant culture is weakened of denied the ability to maintain stability, we have same result.

    This failure to tell immigrants that how they did things back at home or how things were there does not mean things are same in Finland is big mistake. Equally big is telling that they should not do things like Finnish culture has them done. Because that leads to conflict. That leads to overblown representation of certain immigrant groups in rape statistics.

    Immigrants never will become truly Finns, for most part. But they must learn to act according to Finnish cultural norms while in Finland and in public. And if they fail to do it, not whine that Finns are racist because immigrant was one who failed to present themselves properly.

    This is most obvious in immigrant employment. Those who figure out that walking to job interview the same way they would at their country of origin might not be right way to do it in Finland… Might figure out that they should learn how this process is done in Finland. And raise their chances of getting job. Idiots do not think of that, end up unemployed because they would not fit the work community and then whine about racism.

    Same with language. Smart ones understand that while Finns overall speak English well, large portions do not. And much of rest do not feel comfortable speaking English so they do not want to put themselves in such situation. Which means that person without Finnish skills is effectively unemployed. Stupid ones whine about racism, smart ones put their mind to learning instead of wasting time.

  95. Enrique permalink
    November 26, 2008 6:19 am

    –Great. So go elsewhere.

    Again, your gatekeeper arrogance gets the best of you. Who are you to tell me or anyone else where to go? That sounds like the words of an enraged man filled with fear.

    It is not a question of idealism because you believe people from different cultures can live in harmony. The reason why we have had horrid regimes like the ones in Nazi Germany is not only that such people have narrow and exclusive views about themselves, they incorrectly believe they can impose their ways by violence. In order to avoid something like that happening ever again, we have to learn to accept — not destroy — diversity.

    I am proud of who I am and what you think about my views or my background has no meaning. I decide what my values are, where I live, move and travel.

    Your position on these matters show that you are probably over fifty and grew up when Finland was, unfortunately, geopolitically and culturally near-isolated from the world. Your views on Finnish culture and outsiders are sadly tainted by that.

  96. Tiwaz permalink
    November 27, 2008 5:57 am

    -Again, your gatekeeper arrogance gets the best of you. Who are you to tell me or anyone else where to go? That sounds like the words of an enraged man filled with fear.

    Who are you to tell me what should be acceptable in MY native land?
    If you cannot handle to live in Finnish culture according to it’s rules. Moving is good idea. Because I do not want to destroy my identity and culture to appease you, and you do not want to live in my culture. So how about finding a culture where you WANT to live and leaving us who are happy with Finnish culture to live in it?

    -It is not a question of idealism because you believe people from different cultures can live in harmony. The reason why we have had horrid regimes like the ones in Nazi Germany is not only that such people have narrow and exclusive views about themselves, they incorrectly believe they can impose their ways by violence. In order to avoid something like that happening ever again, we have to learn to accept

    How about referring to scientists who have shot your rubbish down before in thread “Foreigners in Finland”.

    Divisions are never good for society. Regimes like Nazi Germany were possible precisely BECAUSE of divisions. You still fail to explain how Hitler could have done what he did if there was no cultural division between Germans and Jews. Because you know there would be no way.

    History proves that societies without large divisions in them (culturally, ethnically, religiously or ideologically) are not ones that turn against themselves.

    Divided societies do. Rwanda, Yugoslavia, Somalia, Basques, Kurds, Iraq, N.Ireland… List goes on. Division = conflict.

    Actually I am closer to 30 than 50. Well educated Finn who enjoys travelling and learning of foreign cultures. My views are only tainted with understanding and realism.

    Your views are the tainted ones, because they are not founded in reality.

  97. Enrique permalink
    November 27, 2008 9:59 am

    –Who are you to tell me what should be acceptable in MY native land?
    If you cannot handle to live in Finnish culture according to it’s rules.

    Why don’t you stop making absolute statements? In first place, this is OUR country NOT yours. The only thing you own is your home and a vote.

    –How about referring to scientists who have shot your rubbish down before in thread “Foreigners in Finland”.

    Please enlighten me and tell me who these scientists are.

    –Divisions are never good for society. Regimes like Nazi Germany were possible precisely BECAUSE of divisions.

    Here is a sentence that really worries me. You blame the Jews for causing divisions because they were part of a sick regime. That is pretty incredible. Maybe that is why Finnish history still has not resolved what our role was in the Continuation War. By the way, take a look at Robert Ley’s testament. As you know, he was one of the big chiefs of the Nazi regime. He writes in jail about two months before he hangs himself in October 1945: “Looking back upon all this today I know I could recount dozens of examples how paralyzing and actually disastrously these two factors influenced us. Consequently our aspect was wrong, we misjudged situations and missed opportunities that could have become our destiny. The anti-semitic spectacles upon the nose of defiant and bold men was a disaster. This must for once be courageously admitted.”

    –Actually I am closer to 30 than 50.

    Then there is still hope.

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