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What does Obama’s victory mean for Finland?

November 5, 2008

I have a dream that my four little children

will one day live in a nation where they will

not be judged by the color of their skin but

by the content of their character.

Martin Luther King

One of the surprising matters of the US presidential elections was not that a black American was elected to the highest office of the land, but the way Barak Obama conducted his campaign and won convincingly. But as the fanfare dies and life returns back to normal, there are a number of important challenges that the US’ 44th president will have to tackle: Iraq and the global financial crisis.

What does Obama’s victory mean for Finland? I believe it sends a strong message of hope that people of different backgrounds have the right and can aspire to change unacceptable matters such as discrimination.

That is why I hope that the Obama effect rubs off those Finns who still believe that racism and insulting people of different backgrounds is acceptable. The day will dawn on Finland when some Finns will no longer judge people because of their color or national background but for their character.

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70 Comments leave one →
  1. intternetnetsi permalink
    November 5, 2008 3:02 pm

    In same time when US still haves strong racists laws and wont treat black and white equally?
    Maybe US should fix their system before you try to lie how great it is..

  2. Enrique permalink
    November 5, 2008 3:45 pm

    But if you have studied US history you would understand that the country has come a long way. This does not mean that everything has been solved. The direction, however, is the correct one.

  3. intternetnetsi permalink
    November 5, 2008 4:48 pm

    I have studied and know something about US politics, now they just oppress whites not like Martin Luther King wanted.
    There arent equality and they are going wrong way.
    What you are means less than that you have protected skin colour.

  4. Tiwaz permalink
    November 6, 2008 6:21 am

    Would you please stop spewing this hatred and racism against Finns?

    It feels really sad how people are so eager to demand that Finland must not be Finnish. It makes me feel like people lack respect for those who have accepted them into this country.

    Respect the country, it’s language and culture. Then you can start asking for respect in turn.

    You, Enrique, are racist yourself. Except your racism is targeted in Finland and Finnish culture. Thus people try to portray you as some kind of enlightened knight fighting evil Finnish culture and society.

    You want Finland to stop being Finland. Turn it into some mixture of this and that without identity. Make it pathetic copy of USA, Argentina and Canada while trying to lie to us that it would not hurt us. But if Finland became like USA, Argentina or Canada… How it could anymore be Finland?

    If you repaint blue house into red. It is no longer blue house. It is red. Same if you paint it with red stripes. That is what you are trying to claim. That we can have our society and culture while destroying it and replacing it with bad imitation of some foreign society and culture.

  5. Tiwaz permalink
    November 6, 2008 10:14 am

    Oh yes, and Enrique. You ARE treated based on your character in Finland. Only problem is, you still haven’t grasped that you are measured by FINNISH standard. And found wanting.

    We do not switch our standard to foreign one so that you would feel good about yourself. Because that would leave us in bad situation where we would have to measure ourselves according to standard we do not feel as our own.

  6. Mateus Noriller permalink
    November 6, 2008 10:54 am

    Well I think you guys misunderstood Enrique.

    Of course we cannot try to transform a country and its culture into something else just because this “something else” works better in another country. On the other hand, we cannot accept racism just because it is part of a country’s culture. The world has changed. There are no boundaries anymore. If we do not heal social anomalies, such as racism, we will face more and more social problems.

    We must be aware that not all rich countries will be rich forever, as well as poor countries will not be poor forever. Imagine if Finland retreated and became a poor country, where the living conditions are terrible. You and your family then migrate to Africa, where the wages are good, schools are the best and you have good hospitals for free. Would you like to suffer discrimination just because your skin is whiter and you come from a poorer country? Try to put yourself into other’s situation.

  7. Enrique permalink
    November 6, 2008 1:36 pm

    Thank you Mateus. A valid question: Why do some people get so hypersenstive when we bring up a nasty subject like racism? Calling me a racist is as preposterous as calling a Jew in a concentration camp an SS officer.
    I wish some people would stop taking healthy debate as something personal.

  8. intternetnetsi permalink
    November 6, 2008 8:54 pm

    Thats because you see us as horrible nazis who cant accept something different. We can, we have and we will if that different is coming to work and to be part of society.
    We do not accept todays religion called “multiculturalism” what basicly says do different cultures inside of country to break it.
    Now again show “multicultural” society without apartheid.
    So no US or Canada, im not sure about australia.
    You dont live in finland, youre not finnish and you dont even read finnish news, who you are to tell what we should do?

  9. Enrique permalink
    November 6, 2008 9:31 pm

    –You dont live in finland, youre not finnish and you dont even read finnish news, who you are to tell what we should do?
    In first place, I have lived in Finland most of my life, I am Finnish and since I live abroad I read Finnish news every now and then. These opinions in my blog are my opinions. I am bringing up a topic which I think is important and should be debated thrououghly in Finnish society.
    I do not see Finns as Nazis who cannot accept diversity.

  10. intternetnetsi permalink
    November 6, 2008 9:41 pm

    No you arent finnish, you have said that clearly and you dont read finnish news. I have seen you dont. And if you dont see finnish and horrible nazis then why you write like they are?

  11. Mateus Noriller permalink
    November 7, 2008 12:50 am

    By the way: I would like to read finnish news too. Is there any good on-line newspaper in english?

    I think this is not about multiculturalism, this is a matter of multicultural respect. I totally support that, if a person migrates to a country, this person must learn that country’s language and culture. But he or she has the right to live with dignity, no matter where. If you ask me why, I’ll answer: Why not?

  12. Tiwaz permalink
    November 7, 2008 5:17 am

    Issue is that there is no multicultural society which functions. You cannot expect natives of country X to respect every goddamn culture you can find from this planet. It just does not work. Not to mention that there are cultures which are firmly at odds, even radically so.

    For example the politically incorrect Islam, women and western world. Islamic cultures generally want woman to wear potato sack. Western world has no such concept. For some Islamic cultures, western concept of equal woman who wears what she wants is anathema. This results in sad cases like group rapes of Australia and other rape issues in other countries.

    This is what multiculturalism at it’s worst brings. There is no single set of rules applied to everyone, which everyone knows. Multiculturalism might work if cultures were not so radically different.

    As it is, they are different. So only working solution is that when you move to another country, you adjust to their culture. If you can’t. leave. Because natives have every right to expect immigrant to respect native culture. When immigrants fail to do so, we get conflict. Which can lead to very nasty repercussions.

    Already Italy has used bulldozers to evict unwanted immigrants. Already we have seen riots in France when immigrants, rather their children, have been unable to adjust to French society and achieve something through that.
    Unless immigrants learn that THEY must give up something when moving elsewhere, we may see situation where bulldozers are replaced by tanks and aggression is by natives against immigrants.

    And again, there is far less racism in Finland than Enrique tries to claim. What he claims as racism is immigrant stupidity. Immigrant does not get a job or “equal” treatment because they do not grasp how to act and speak. If someone is stupid enough not to understand to adjust their acting to conform local norms and learn local language then there is no pity from me to them.

    I do not expect acting Finnish and speaking only Finnish would grant me great benefits while looking for work or life elsewhere. I must change. I must learn to present myself correctly in LOCAL CULTURAL CONTEXT and in fluent local language. At that point if I would still be discriminated against, it might be racism. Until then, it is my stupidity.

    What Enrique here presents as racism is in reality immigrant stupidity. If not flat out racism against natives, as he expects us Finns to appease every whim of immigrants.

  13. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    November 7, 2008 10:44 am

    As it was asked why one evil “nationalist” should the immigrants vote for him:

    When asked why foreigners should vote for his party, Ville is thoughtful.

    ‘If foreigners have come here and want to stay here then I assume it is because they like the Finnish culture and way of life. We are the only party that wants to preserve the Finnish culture and way of life so I think we are the party that foreigners should vote for.’

    When asked about his views on immigration he is unspecific but still quite clear.

    ‘We must be very concerned to look at what kind of people we are taking into this country,’ he says. ‘Because the way of life is sometimes very different in Finland. If we take a lot of these people too quickly – and they are just staying with themselves and not integrating with Finns – then this can lead to problems as different ways of life clash.’

    ‘Maybe we have already seen these problems in Finland’ he adds.

    Nothing new in there. Enrique wants to destroy Finland. He also wants to destroy Brazil.

  14. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    November 7, 2008 10:46 am

    As it was asked why one evil “nationalist” should the immigrants vote for him:

    When asked why foreigners should vote for his party, Ville is thoughtful.

    ‘If foreigners have come here and want to stay here then I assume it is because they like the Finnish culture and way of life. We are the only party that wants to preserve the Finnish culture and way of life so I think we are the party that foreigners should vote for.’

    When asked about his views on immigration he is unspecific but still quite clear.

    ‘We must be very concerned to look at what kind of people we are taking into this country,’ he says. ‘Because the way of life is sometimes very different in Finland. If we take a lot of these people too quickly – and they are just staying with themselves and not integrating with Finns – then this can lead to problems as different ways of life clash.’

    ‘Maybe we have already seen these problems in Finland’ he adds.

    Nothing new in there. Enrique wants to destroy Finland. He also wants to destroy Brazil.

  15. Enrique permalink
    November 7, 2008 3:08 pm

    Hi Internetsi, so you are the God who decides who is a Finn and who is not. It does not really matter what you think since the most important matter at the end of the day is who I think I am. And, anyway, I don’t go around labelling people if they are Finns or not for what they think. Your opinions are your own no matter from what country or culture you appear to identify with.

  16. Enrique permalink
    November 7, 2008 3:11 pm

    Tiwaz, no society is perfect no matter how multicultural or monocultural it may be. And yes, I would respect EVERY culture and take the time to learn about them. What is wrong with that? Do you go around being disrespectful to some people and nice to others?

  17. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    November 7, 2008 6:53 pm

    Mateus: you asked for “good”… don’t expect too much
    Of course there is the Pravda and Radio Jerevan
    http://www.hs.fi/english/
    http://www.yle.fi/news/

    Then there is a pretty good operation in Oulu http://www.65degreesnorth.com/
    more global news also in http://www.helsinkitimes.fi/htimes/
    and then theres a more cultural http://www.6d.fi/ which isn’t quite as racist and anti-finitic as it was in its heyday and then cultural you have http://www.ovimagazine.com and there is another one as well but that escapes my memory…

  18. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    November 7, 2008 6:59 pm

    Yeah, Enrique, the only problem is that you think insulting Finns is acceptable.

  19. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    November 7, 2008 7:01 pm

    Oh, theres a couple of English language magazines in the spamtrap for Mateus.

  20. Enrique permalink
    November 7, 2008 8:35 pm

    DeTant, why do you think that debating an issue is “insulting?” Thanks for the links.

  21. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    November 7, 2008 11:54 pm

    It is about as much “debating” as if I was stating in every post that foreigners are ugly, smelly, randomly hairy and stupid. You should respect the Finnish culture for what it is – it may not be perfect – but it is perfect for us who choose to live here.

    The good thing I find now in Obama winning is that if a black guy can become the president of the USA it is not racism that keeps people from attaining any position – its their own actions or inactions that keeps them down so now they cannot whine it is “the man” keeping them down.

    What Obamas victory means for Finland. Well, now that he’s stated he would gladly see Finland joining NATO the greens and socialists are really confused and opposing NATO must now be racism.

  22. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    November 7, 2008 11:58 pm

    OK. some more for Mateus:
    http://www.freemagazine.fi
    http://virtual.finland.fi/news/

    and a bit from the neigbors:
    http://www.scandinavianow.com/
    http://www.thelocal.se

  23. Enrique permalink
    November 8, 2008 2:37 pm

    DeTant, once again you generalize. You have your way of airing issues and I have mine. I believe that a society that can debate sensitive issues can also find solutions to them. You call it “whining” and I call it “bringing an issue to the public light.”
    NATO membership… That’s a difficult one for some Finns. However, we should not be miseld like with the FCMA (YYA) that Russians will consult with us before they invade us. If there were a crisis, the last thing that Russia would care about is our safety and security.

  24. Mateus Noriller permalink
    November 8, 2008 4:15 pm

    That’s something I would really appreciate if anybody helped me to understand: the relationship between Finland and Russia is that serious?

    Detant, thanks for the links.

  25. intternetnetsi permalink
    November 8, 2008 6:34 pm

    “Hi Internetsi, so you are the God who decides who is a Finn and who is not. It does not really matter what you think “..blaa

    Of course it doesnt mean anything what i think but as finn, knowing hundreds of finns and livin with thousands of finns i know what it take to be finnish in this society and i see you obviously dont want to so youre not finn and im quite sure you find that out if you move in here and keep acting like you write.

  26. intternetnetsi permalink
    November 8, 2008 6:53 pm

    Mateus “That’s something I would really appreciate if anybody helped me to understand: the relationship between Finland and Russia is that serious?”

    Well 80%+ of age does military service and if i remember correctly 30%+ teens believe we will have war with russia in 10yrs.
    I do not trust russian so wont my near friends, it is real threat atleast in emotional level. I know thats in current situation its not probably that russians would attack but i cant trust to that.
    Readers digest 2008 “Vähiten suomalaiset puolestaan luottavat venäläisiin, sillä peräti 61 % suomalaisista sanoo etteivät he luota heihin. ” so 61% dont trust russians.

    http://www.iiss.org/whats-new/iiss-in-the-press/august-2008/in-a-changing-world-finlands-artillery-stays-the-same/

    “An interesting angle on the question came on Thursday at the Hamina Tattoo festival of military music, when a large military band from Leningrad military district joined forces with other military bands to play Finnish military tunes such as the March of the Jaegers, and the March of the Pori Brigade.
    The amused reactions of the Finnish audience suggested that there is ->no lack of shared consciousness.<- At the same time consideration might have been given to whether or not it would be possible to reduce artillery, as Russian soldiers play the Jaeger March, even though it is not the orchestras that pose a threat.”

    Can we trust russians? in decade maybe but doubt that sooner.

    We have good relations but not based on trust, just common interest.

  27. Enrique permalink
    November 8, 2008 8:20 pm

    Your comment concerning who you consder a Finn and fear of the Russians are one of the biggest obstacles for Finns to start being more concerned about how to accept other people from diverse backgrounds instead of coloring the “me” and “them.”
    Certainly the war with Russia was painful as well as our independence. However, we should start to look forward and quit being so fixated by our history. Other countries have had it far worse: Mexico and the US, for example.
    Since Finland is such a young republic, probably the trauma of the wars with Russia and the fact that the country is still in the proces of nation building after 1917, could explain why some Finns are so distrustful of outisiders. In sum, the distrust of Russians is what ruins it for the rest of the foreigners in Finland.

  28. intternetnetsi permalink
    November 8, 2008 8:58 pm

    There is always “we and them”, thats biology and sociology. Read. And then tell how to change instics installed our genes?

  29. Enrique permalink
    November 9, 2008 1:20 pm

    Yes, true, but some countries are more obsessed by the “us” and “them” than others. Humans have instincts? Probably a few like women breasting children. However, we are different from animals since we learn instead of rely on instinct — culture is anything learned. Hence, we can do somthing about our social ills without being victims of our genes. How much our genes affect our behavior is still a topic much in debate. Your arguments have a taste of historical evolutionism (social Darwinism), which lost crediblity in the previous century. Humans learn and can transmit what they have learned from generation to generation. Anilmals have instinct. That is the big difference.

  30. De Tant Blomhat permalink
    November 9, 2008 6:46 pm

    Fine Enrique, you buy a house on the border and live there yourself. Then come tell us how we should feel.

    I have nothing against any random Russian as a person – if they choose to act decent they’re as welcome as any other random person to visit. Its the government I do not trust (and I don’t trust the Finnish government either). And I can see the ethnic minorities in Russia being decimated, so why would I not feel a healthy fear being one of the border regions – if we had stayed with Russia we would not be here. And what even more scares me the way Russia uses ethnic Russians as a weapon, so that makes me a bit worried if the Russians don’t come for a visit but stay – and then Kremlin starts playing the tune.

    Humans have instincts and its an instinct someone who doesn’t live my life right here is nobody to start questioning my life.

  31. De Tant Blomhat permalink
    November 9, 2008 6:51 pm

    * You call it “whining” and I call it “bringing an issue to the public light.”

    OK, then let you bring “issues” that are relevant to even 90% of the people instead of bringing forth issues that are relevant to some irrelevant foreigners. I would say 90% of those foreigners would also benefit of those real issues that 90% of the people would benefit of – instead of some people thinking they are better than others and bringing non-issues to the front when theres much more bigger issues relevant to the nation to be discussed. Talk of the people getting unemployed with the factories closing. That is an “issue”. Even the NATO-debate is an “issue”. Obamas skin color is not an issue.

  32. intternetnetsi permalink
    November 9, 2008 8:14 pm

    “Humans learn and can transmit what they have learned from generation to generation.” Ok, explain how baby and adult senses danger when he/she sees/hears foreigner. Not instict at all…
    Explain why most people want to live with people of his kind be it face or language, and if large enough its face?
    Human is flexible and can do other way but still there is instict of non trust for foreigners.

    Now test this, you have to choose between 2 people, one dies.
    Do you choose your relative or other?
    You probably choose other because your genes are programmed to serve your line.

    And you call it social darvinism what you say lost credibility, look what http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Dawkins has to say about it.

  33. Tiwaz permalink
    November 10, 2008 6:13 am

    “Tiwaz, no society is perfect no matter how multicultural or monocultural it may be. And yes, I would respect EVERY culture and take the time to learn about them. What is wrong with that? Do you go around being disrespectful to some people and nice to others?”

    So why you want to import system which repeatedly has proven to be unable to produce stable, unified and safe enviroment into Finland which already has by and large stable, unified and safe enviroment?

    How about starting to respect FINNISH culture and take your time to adapt to it. Instead of expecting Finns to appease immigrants by adapting to their cultures in FINLAND. Country we have inhabited for millenias. Finland may be young as republic, but Finns as people go far beyond modern history can track.

    Enrique, thing rationally. Multiculturalism is another word for stupidity. It is like computers in nineties. Specially with games.

    Each manufacturer had their own interface for their card, which had to be used in certain way. Result was that programmers had to build drivers for every graphics card they wanted their product to support, if they wanted to use any more advanced methods. This is multiculturalism. Extremely inefficient and conflict prone as there is no way two people from totally different cultural background ever can see things the same way. They will always start to argue and fight.

    Then came Microsoft, finally doing something right. They told software producers to use these controls, and hardware manufacturers to use these interfaces. They called it DirectX. And behold! Ages old idiotic system of having to download new drivers for every goddamn device was practically gone! By making all devices use same interface in interaction. This is Finland, or any monocultural society. It is one where there is far less conflict, as everyone can interact and communicate without huge problems.

    Finland and Finns have every right to demand all immigrants to adjust to Finnish society. This is our land, our ancestors lived in it, bled for it. You foreigners, and you are very much foreigner Enrique since you still have not grasped Finnish culture, have no right to demand us to change it to make it fit you.

    You Enrique can’t grasp what it is like to have such ties to country and culture. Because yours is one that still has not managed to create one. It is just mess of different influences which continuously fights with itself.

    Think. Columbus found America in late 15th century.1492. My significant other has plague at the wall of her home telling how her family, uninterrupted, has farmed that little piece of land since around 1550. That single, rather unsignificant farm, can outage your whole country.

  34. Mateus Noriller permalink
    November 10, 2008 12:10 pm

    It seems that Finland needs workforce from abroad, according to the website Virtual Finland. The report reads:

    “In 2010, the working-age population will begin to decrease in Finland. On average, the ageing of the population is a worse problem for Finland than for the other OECD countries, with more people retiring than entering the workforce as new or immigrant labour.”

    http://virtual.finland.fi/netcomm/news/showarticle.asp?intNWSAID=70201&intIGID=3&intCatID=&CatTypeNumber=3&LAN=EN&contlan=&Thread=&intThreadPosition=1

    As I can see, immigration, racism, multiculturalism, etc. are very polemic issues, specially for finns. The comments above are a proof of that. Will Finland be able to handle the problem of the necessity of workforce from abrod? Why does Finland need immigrants? Aren’t there enough finns to fulfill Finland’s workers necessity?

  35. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    November 10, 2008 1:22 pm

    There is no “need for workers”. You look at present how many people are unemployed and who cannot find work. Especially among immigrants the unemployment figures are apallingly high. This “need for workers” is an illusion created by a need of an “exploitable workforce”. The employers want this and demand that and at the end of the day they will not hire someone been in the country because they know what the living costs are and know enough of their rights to ask for decent wages. So the employers satisfy this “need for workers” by importing foreigners who cannot speak the language nor understand their rights nor have the sense to ask for decent wages as they think they are getting a good deal. In other words this is if not modern slavery then creating a foreigner underclass. And multiculturalism is the best way to keep this labor force ignorant and separated from the other workers so there will not be solidarity. However there is one problem – where are the “jobs” for these people? All the factories are closing. So where can you employ a non-speaking immigrant? Can you employ them as police, teacher, doctor? Even in Sweden it takes *seven years* for the average immigrant to find a job. So where are the jobs for these “need workers”?

    The fact is that to fulfill the jobs that the elderly population is leaving you need to bring in workers who actually have a better dependency ratio than the people currently in the country. With immigrants the dependency ratios are worse than with the natives. So when we start looking at 2nd generation immigrants the dependency ratio will start to contribute to the society enough so that the costs for immigration will be covered. By that time the “big generations” pension problem has already been dealt with.

    And its wholesale racism to bring in people just to have a little more color in the country if theres no meaningful employment available.

  36. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    November 10, 2008 1:43 pm

    This is what they are doing in Sweden, which is not what they are doing in Finland:
    http://www.thelocal.se/15494/20081106/

  37. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    November 10, 2008 1:57 pm

    The Obama phenomenon happened explicitly because JFK wanted the future leaders of newly independent African nations to be American educated. This is why his father got a scholarship to study in America and Obama Sr. also returned to Kenya to make a political career there after his US education. JFK obviously wanted people like Obama’s father to study in America because the USSR was in the same business, aiming to educate future third world leaders and help to form their values.

    Another issue to speculate for those who love to say what if… Instead of asking what if Obama’s father had come to America 100 years ago we might ask what if he had studied in Moscow instead. Would Russia today have a president named Barack Obama?

  38. Enrique permalink
    November 10, 2008 1:59 pm

    DeTant, certainly if you look at unemployment levels we can argue that there are no need for foreign workers. However, we are talking about specialized workers and, anyway, more people in the labor force would be good for Finland as its population ages. I don’t think you can correleate unemployment and labor force needs. “Get in touch with your congressman.”

  39. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    November 10, 2008 4:37 pm

    So why is the answer to getting “specialized workers” to bring in people who are most removed from the current virtually homogenic consensus-culture and will take the most time to integrate, rather than trying to get people who might integrate faster? Why don’t they make a hiring bid in say Ireland or Iceland? Oh yes, I forgot, you actually would have to pay real wages… some reason we do not get EU trained doctors who have a slightly lesser scrutiny and demands than from outside EU.

    What I say is try to integrate and employ the current unemployed immigrants and then as we have some sort of a system and working system at that then we can calculate the future much better. Currently it is just misappropriating funds and wasting not only money – but the resources – the peoples themselves.

  40. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    November 11, 2008 6:58 am

    Maybe the new president of the Maldives needs you to go give him some multicultural training:
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20081110/wl_sthasia_afp/maldivespoliticswarming_081110065206
    “India and Sri Lanka are targets because they had similar cultures and climates.”
    No no no, they got it all wrong, they should go somewhere totally alien to themselves in to impose their own culture upon totally different people, someone needs to tell them this. Enrique they need you to lead them to Greenland,

  41. Tiwaz permalink
    November 11, 2008 8:28 am

    “As I can see, immigration, racism, multiculturalism, etc. are very polemic issues, specially for finns. The comments above are a proof of that. Will Finland be able to handle the problem of the necessity of workforce from abrod? Why does Finland need immigrants? Aren’t there enough finns to fulfill Finland’s workers necessity?”

    How about asking if importing unintegrating workers is more trouble than it is worth?

    Yes, Finland has aging population. Way to go government! Young couples do not have enough money to raise a family, and later on there is no time and energy.

    But is having aging population and possible, if there ever will be shortage of work which is unlikely, problems coming from it somehow worse than destruction of social cohesion and unity through importation of unintegrating immigrants?

    You people just offer bringing in people and demanding Finns to appease their cultural tradition as solution to illusion of worker shortage. But firmly refuse to acknowledge that introduction of such totally segregated population is only going to cause trouble. You pretend that they somehow do not cause conflict with natives with their incompatible cultural traditions.

    As it is, rape statistics show concerning overrepresentation of people of middle eastern origin. This is because of cultural conflict, too many of them cannot get their head around different culture of Finland. Is this what we are supposed to understand?

    Increasing amount of unintegrating immigrants only increases these problems. If there was some worker shortage, it would be temporary. Problem of resident unintegrated immigrant population is permanent problem.

    Paris has proven it with riots. Spain is desperately trying to get rid of them. Germany has issues with them. Creating permanent problem to fix temporary problem is idiots solution. Right now all we can do is wait until in countries which did import unintegrating population there is big flash of violence, purge of unintegrated immigrants through any and all means necessary.

    Multicultural but unified and stable society is impossible. Enrique hasn’t been able to present one. Because there isn’t one. Culturas are always in conflict with one another, until one has subjugated others in it’s area of influence.
    That is what is taking place with swedish speaking minority of Finland and sami people, despite attempts to do the opposite. But this is slow and “gentle” process. As these groups have fought their battles centuries ago and have come to situation where there is no conflict. Swedish and sami populations have practically embraced Finnish culture while holding on to vestiges of their own.

    Immigrants would not have such situation, if they demand acceptance of their own culture in Finland, they will just line themselves up for resentment of natives for being bad guests. Because cultures do not survive if they give in to other cultures pushing into their area of control. As the issue would grow and touch more people, resentment would grow.

  42. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    November 11, 2008 2:29 pm

    What to do when own dogs bite?

    http://www.nisnews.nl/public/071108_1.htm
    TV presenter Prem Radhakishun, himself black and a strong advocate of multiculturalism, now feels safer in the proximity of white racists than among Moroccan teenagers.

  43. Mateus Noriller permalink
    November 11, 2008 4:37 pm

    Brazilian society has been able to develop as a multicultural one. My family is from Italy, my neighbor’s is from Germany. My colleagues at work have african background. My teacher’s family is from Portugal. My girlfriend’s family is from Austria. My friends are from the Netherlands and many more are native americans, indigenous. A big part of brazilian population is from Japan. We also have many people from the middle east. There are catholics, lutherans, muslims, buddhists, coupled with many more native american religions and african religions as well. The italian culture of my family has nothing to do with Samba, Carnaval and football. It also has nothing to do with the german festivals that take place in october. Brazil bursts culture. Our society is so multicultural that sometimes it is almost impossible not to feel a bit african, a bit german, a bit japanese, etc.

    The great thing is: even though we still have many problems, these problems are not caused by our multiculturalism. Each ethnic group feels proud of its culture and origins and also feels proud of the culture of the other ethnic groups.

    There is something even greater: we are a young nation. We have suffered for a long time under the Portuguese rule. Now the USA wants to impose its culture to our society. But our roots are growing stronger, and we are developing more than ever in a globalized world without forgetting our origins.

    Maybe Brazil, as a whole, doesn’t have the european quality of life. But we are in the correct way. And I wish my fellow citizens were welcomed in europe or in any part of the world, since the europeans were pretty welcomed here in Brazil when they came here escaping from the famine and poverty that afflicted europe centuries ago.

  44. Tiwaz permalink
    November 12, 2008 6:15 am

    And neither is Brazilian society culturally existing in sense of Europe.

    As I have pointed out, you got your first colonists around the same time my SO started farming the plot they own today.

    To put it simply, Brazil does not have established social structure formed by millenias of life. Also, Brazil has huge amount of land where to expand. That helps a lot when dealing with issue of problems with multiculturalism. There simply are less boundaries to hit.

    That is only reason USA and Canada have managed to get some kind of functionality out of multiculturalism. With lots of room and destroying local dominant culture and replacing it with hodgepodge of different cultural backgrounds which is in no way unified. That lack of unity is what hurts these nations a lot. There are simply too many competing interest groups to have unity of purpose in the people.

    But should Brazil, USA or Canada have fraction of territory they have, there would be conflict. Same thing if they did not annihilate native populations.

    Simply put, societies which have barely existed for few centuries cannot be used as example of how things work when trying to destroy society which has history measured in millenias.

    Only way for multiculturalism even in sense of USA/Canada/Brazil could somehow work with Finland is if Finnish culture is wiped out and destroyed. Because there is no longer room for expansion in Finland. Every piece of land some foreign culture would gain in Finland would have to come at expense of Finnish culture.

  45. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    November 12, 2008 7:45 am

    We also feel this USA domination, but I guess thats a global trend.

  46. Mateus Noriller permalink
    November 12, 2008 9:41 am

    “Every piece of land some foreign culture would gain in Finland would have to come at expense of Finnish culture.”

    That’s a point, makes sense. But I don’t see it as a geographical matter as all these different cultures in Brazil are mixed and exist among each other.

    By the way: brazilian indigenous were not annihilated.

    So you think globalization should stop?

  47. intternetnetsi permalink
    November 12, 2008 6:39 pm

    “By the way: brazilian indigenous were not annihilated.”

    …Many of the estimated 2,000 nations and tribes which existed in 1500 died out as a consequence of the European settlement, and many were assimilated into the Brazilian population.

    The indigenous population has declined from a pre-Columbian high of an estimated at below 4 million to some 300,000 (1997)…

    519,000 Indigenous Brazilians
    0.4% of Brazil’s population[1]

    Oh yeah, so its still their country under their rule?

  48. Mateus Noriller permalink
    November 12, 2008 7:36 pm

    Of course many of them died as a consequence of the European settlement, they fought for land after all. But being annihilated is something way different. And being assimilated into the brazilian population doesn’t make them non-native american. The ones who were assimilated into brazilian population left the jungles and wear clothes now, but they are still indigenous and have their own culture.

    These numbers, 0,4% of brazilian population and 519,000 Indigenous brazilians, concern the ones who still live in their Indian settlements, in the jungle. Furthermore, there are many more tribes which are still unknow by the white men, coupled with thousands of indigenous that live in urban areas, who are undoubtedly still indigenous.

  49. Mateus Noriller permalink
    November 12, 2008 7:38 pm

    Oh, and the indigenous population is growing at an average of 10,8% a year.

  50. Enrique permalink
    November 13, 2008 1:09 am

    –Explain why most people want to live with people of his kind be it face or language, and if large enough its face?

    Is this a result of “genes” of culture? I believe it is the latter as opposed to the former.

    –Human is flexible and can do other way but still there is instict of non trust for foreigners.

    This is not an instinct. It is cultural. We are taught to distrust people who do not fit to our view of normal or marginal. However, we live today in complex societies where diversity is the norm. Did you ever think that maybe it is our education system that is at fault.

    –Now test this, you have to choose between 2 people, one dies.
    Do you choose your relative or other?

    Does this have to do with instinct or is it common sense? You chose the family because it is your refuge — someone you can trust.

  51. Enrique permalink
    November 13, 2008 1:13 am

    Mateus, you explained Brazilian diversity eloquently. It is very difficult for some people in this country to understand the beauty of diversity. We are all proud of who we are but this does not mean that we have to disenfranchise or trample on other groups to make ourselves feel secure. Humankind has always built roads because he does not believe in isolation.
    And, Mateus, you must feel lucky that you can not only travel in many countries but make the journey to many cultures.

  52. Enrique permalink
    November 13, 2008 1:18 am

    –The indigenous population has declined from a pre-Columbian high of an estimated at below 4 million to some 300,000 (1997)… 519,000 Indigenous Brazilians
    0.4% of Brazil’s population[1] Oh yeah, so its still their country under their rule?

    What the Europeans did in the Americas is shameful. Only after over 500 years we are somehow facing up to this problem. Amerindians were also wiped out by things such as a common cold. They lacked antibodies that we had.

    But if you believe in social Darwinism, then you must believe that the strongest survives and it is ok to be colonial. Much of the social Darwinism, in my opinion, was used to justify colonialism and the subjugation of “non-European” cultures.

  53. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    November 13, 2008 1:10 pm

    “It is very difficult for some people in this country to understand the beauty of diversity.”

    The beauty of diversity you propose such as 5 million Finns to be decimated into a few hundred thousand?

  54. Tiwaz permalink
    November 15, 2008 2:13 pm

    “Of course many of them died as a consequence of the European settlement, they fought for land after all. But being annihilated is something way different. And being assimilated into the brazilian population doesn’t make them non-native american. The ones who were assimilated into brazilian population left the jungles and wear clothes now, but they are still indigenous and have their own culture.

    These numbers, 0,4% of brazilian population and 519,000 Indigenous brazilians, concern the ones who still live in their Indian settlements, in the jungle. Furthermore, there are many more tribes which are still unknow by the white men, coupled with thousands of indigenous that live in urban areas, who are undoubtedly still indigenous.”

    Many? Died out?

    They were WIPED out.

    And your comment about current Brazilian society is irrelevant. It is built on bones of natives. Your explanation on how varied people get along fail to recognise one thing.

    Natives are little, insignificant portion which has no power. Everyone else is offspring of people coming from abroad, their number overwhelming the natives and eroding native culture and society.

    They do not have their own culture, they have mixture of cultures non-native to area of Brazil.

    To explain it in simple terms, to make Finland Brazil we would have to annihilate Finns to fraction of our number, replace Finnish culture with foreign ones and erode Finnish society to point of destruction.

    That is what is taking place in USA. Indians leave their reservations, lose their tradition and culture. Ending up becomign just like rest. Losing their identity.

    Why we Finns would want to end up like indians? Why would we embrace annihilation of our identity?

    You are right, there is darwinism involved. Those cultures weak or stupid permit or have to permit foreigners establishing their culture in their land. And die away.

    You propose we Finns should be stupid and do it, because some guy from Argentina, another society built on bones of natives, wants to turn Finland into Argentina.

  55. Tiwaz permalink
    November 15, 2008 2:22 pm

    I say again, there is no room for other cultures in Finland. Brazil and Argentina and rest are different. There native culture was wiped out and shoved into small closet. Permitting other cultures to come and take over.

    Finland, thankfully, is not in same situation. Finland has it’s own culture, it is everywhere in Finland. To have any area switch to multicultural means that Finnish culture is being pushed away from it’s native land.

  56. Mateus Rigo Noriller permalink
    November 15, 2008 11:33 pm

    Tiwaz, I acknowledge that the amerindians are a minority and have limited power here. And I recognize, too, that the culture of the europeans that came from abroad ALMOST wiped out the native culture (because it didn’t, and it is as strong as never before). So this is the perfect example of what you, finns, need to avoid. The brazilian example that I gently gave you was supposed to show you that a multicultural society CAN function. The way that brazilian multicultural society started was the worst, but it still functions. So now, finns have a good example coming from south america. Nobody here is asking you to throw your own culture away. Exactly counter to that! USA’s imperialism pisses me off, for example. South American history tells you how to build a fair multicultural society, based on mutual respect, and not based on native bones, as you said. It tells you how to build a society in which the finnish culture will be sovereign and all the foreign cultures will be under its sovereignty, but they will still co-exist and respect each other. Cultures don’t need place and room to exist. They are in people’s heads and hearts.

  57. intternetnetsi permalink
    November 16, 2008 11:16 pm

    Difference in Brazil like in US, Canada and Australia is that whole country is made up by immigrants wiping out current people in country. That seems only semisuccesful way to make multicultural society.
    Atleast US and Canada have apartheid going on currently and i dont count that to good things.
    We can take people in if they adapt to finnish culture and society like tatars have done.

  58. Tiwaz permalink
    November 17, 2008 6:45 am

    So tell me, Mateus. How do you preserve Finnish culture if we abandon it and embrace whatever cultures some foreigners want to import here?

    Like I said, there is no room for new cultures in Finland. And functionality of Brazilian society can be questioned. Furthermore, one exception in collection of failures of multicultural societies changes nothing. And that is if we accept Brazil as unified, stable and functional society.

    It still leaves us with USA, Canada and rest of multicultural “heavens” which are divided and disfunctional.

    Not to mention, as it has bee stated, that none of these nations share similar condition with Finland! To see how multicultural society “works” we have to look at established societies which already had strong, unified culture before attempt to enforce multiculturalism.

    Like France, UK and other European states. And when we look there, we see many warning signs of failure of multiculturalism when attempted to push into established society.

    Your only functional example is society established through destroying of native culture. Your claim that native cultures are strong. False.

    When those natives move to cities, start wearing T-shirt and speak portugese, they no longer practice their native culture. They become part of foreign cultural mix, abandoning their culture. Those tribes still in dark corners of Amazon are last vestiges of native culture, and they are slowly dying away.

    Their culture is dying. Because what is found in Brazilian cities is not native culture, it is imported mixture. It does not represent what native cultures would have evolved into if European colonists had never set foot in Amazon area, that much is certain.

  59. Mateus Noriller permalink
    November 17, 2008 11:48 am

    Tiwaz, you should try to spend some time in Brazil before you claim such things. All you know about brazilian “functionality” and “native culture” is outsider’s view.

    “How do you preserve Finnish culture if we abandon it and embrace whatever cultures some foreigners want to import here?”

    I do not want you to abandon your culture. As I said, finnish culture is sovereign on finnish soil.

    The problem between you and me is that we are talking about different things. You refer to a multicultural society as a fusion of cultures. A real mix. When I talk about multicultural society I don’t mean a fusion of cultures. I mean a society in which the different cultures respect each other. If we think of a multicultural society as a fusion of cultures you may be right. It doesn’t work. But if we think of a multicultural society as a place where people don

  60. Mateus Noriller permalink
    November 17, 2008 12:01 pm

    … where people don’t judge each other because of their backgrounds, but because of their character, because of their behaviour, then this society can function. Not only can it function, but it is also what we should aim. Globalization has no way back, be it something good, be it something bad.

    But globalization won’t spoil finnish culture if it is strong enough. Cultures are only replaced by other cultures if they are weak and dying.

    If a person migrates to Finland, this person must learn finnish and must behave as the finnish society demands. But if this person does that, nobody can judge him/her because of background matters.

  61. intternetnetsi permalink
    November 17, 2008 10:35 pm

    “…where people don’t judge each other because of their backgrounds…”
    In usa, canada and uk they judge. Not sure about australia.

  62. Enrique permalink
    November 17, 2008 11:20 pm

    –Difference in Brazil like in US, Canada and Australia is that whole country is made up by immigrants wiping out current people in country.

    You make an interesting point. However, even though it is shameful that European cultures wiped out many Amerindian cultures, we should try to avoid this type of cultural obliteration. How? By accepting diversity and allowing other cultures to keep their identity.

  63. Enrique permalink
    November 17, 2008 11:25 pm

    –So tell me, Mateus. How do you preserve Finnish culture if we abandon it and embrace whatever cultures some foreigners want to import here?

    When you respect diversity and other cultures, you ensure that you do not wipe them out in the same way as happened when European colonized and immigrated to regions like the New World. Tiwaz, your model for 100% integration is the same strategy that was used to conquer Amerindian groups. Why do you want to do it all over again in Finland with foreigners? The issue here is deeper: you think that diversity is a threat while it has been shown in other regions that it can be an asset. We no longer live in isolated cultural castles. We have to learn how to respect other cultures and allow people, everyone, that lives within our borders to belong and be able to retain their identity if they wish.

  64. Enrique permalink
    November 17, 2008 11:27 pm

    –I do not want you to abandon your culture. As I said, finnish culture is sovereign on finnish soil.

    Finnish culture will always be king within its borders. The way of ensuring that there will not be any conflicts, or keep them to a minimum, is respecting and embracing diversity. It is the only way for people from different cultures to live harmoniously.

  65. Tiwaz permalink
    November 18, 2008 5:13 am

    Enrique, foreigner coming to Finland is voluntarily in Finland. We are not rushing abroad raiding villages and dragging people to Finland against their will. If they decided to come and stay in Finland, we have every right to demand integration to Finnish society on Finnish terms. Or getting out. That is always an option for you unhappy unintegraters. Go, leave. Find place which fits your delusional desire for multicultural life. Leave us in peace, to have our country the way WE, Finns, want it.

    Diversity is not asset, it is threat. There is no society which is functional with different cultural groups in it. Look at Iraq! They are basically same people, there is just cultural/religious rifts between them. And where has it led? To vibrant, happy and unified society? No! To war, suffering and dictatorship.

    Somalia and rest. Different tribes, different cultures. Happiness and kumbaya? No! Slaughter, massacre, violence, death and destruction.

    Diversity brings those with it, because assumption that there is some kind of neutral ground upon which to judge people, and only idiot thinks we do not judge people we meet Mateus, is false. We judge people based on our cultural background.

    Muslim does not look at western woman in itty bitty bikini through neutral eyes, he looks at her through muslim cultural background and judges her accordingly. French does not look at indian with neutral point of view, but judges that indian according to French cultural norms.

    Our culture defines who we are, how we perceive the world around us. There is no possibility of creating society where all cultures are equal. Everyone wants to have THEIR culture used in social interaction, as base for that interaction. But as cultures are different, so are their base premises. Thus, there will always be conflict. There is no neutral ground, there are only situations when two random cultures are not in conflict, but cultures where there is zero conflict between them are about as rare as working multicultural societies. Practically nonexistent that is.

    Bottom line. Immigrant came to Finland. Immigrant must integrate. Finland did not come to immigrant, Finland does not need to change to make immigrant happy.

    There is your diversity. Be as diverse abroad as you want, but in Finland you do things the Finnish way. Or if you do not, do not bitch that you are not treated like a Finn.

    You are correct, Finnish culture will survive if it remains strong. But here is the issue, it will not remain strong if we just let foreign cultures come to Finland and replace Finnish culture. You people yourself have admitted that for another culture to gain hold in Finland, Finnish culture must yield. That means, Finnish culture is weakened. Weakened until it can be killed off.

    But then again, that is what you guys actually want isn’t it? At least Enrique has made his desire clear. He wants to wipe out Finnish culture and replace it with something along Argentinian lines.

  66. Enrique permalink
    November 18, 2008 6:32 am

    –But then again, that is what you guys actually want isn’t it? At least Enrique has made his desire clear. He wants to wipe out Finnish culture and replace it with something along Argentinian lines.

    I am disappointed that you think this way. If you go to the “White Power” websites in the United States they surprisingly use the same arguments as you about being threatened. Your argument is only a storm in a teacup.

  67. Kristian permalink
    December 7, 2008 5:55 pm

    This is another very typical trait of the hardcore Multikult fanatic – every society on earth can be reduced to Americanized terms. The mind set is crystallized in questions such as “When will there be a European Obama” as if Europe had to have an Obama to prove something.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 7, 2008 7:02 pm

      “Multikult fanatic?!” Don’t make me laugh.

  68. Kristian permalink
    December 8, 2008 9:56 am

    Don’t actually comment on my point.

    You might have to explain why every society on earth is reducable to American terms and concepts of “white” and “black”and “racism” and whatnot.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 8, 2008 10:43 am

      I don’t think I said that every society on earth depends on US terms. There is a very valuable document called the UN Declaration of Human Rights, which is a good benchmark for countries to follow. Racism is not only an American concept it is universal.

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