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The building of Finnish national identity within a multicultural society

November 17, 2008

One of the matters that some Finns who read the many comments in this blog should try to understand is that cultural diversity or multiculturalism should not be perceived as a threat but as an opportunity.

For some Finns, who see foreigners as a threat to our culture, this fear can be best explained through two historical factors: 1) Finns are still building a national identity since independence in 1917 from Russia; and 2) the Winter and Continuous War that put in grave jeopardy that identity- and nation-building process.

Finns have gone to great lengths to forge a sense of national identity. In the 1920s, for example, Finns were encouraged to change their “foreign” surnames for Finnish ones.

It may seem odd, however, to some that even to this date the process of building a national identity appears to be as strong and as imperative as it was after 1917. Even so, facts like globalization, European Union membership, and the fact that more foreigners living in Finland of diverse backgrounds, have brought in question how we define Finns and how foreigners should be perceived within that national identity-building process.

Since mutual respect is one of the golden rules of living in a successful society that has diverse backgrounds, it has to be a two-way street. Finns have a right to be Finns and be proud of their identity in the same way as other groups that may not fit the general definition of what is a Finn have the right to be proud of their heritage. It is a healthy matter that cultures can grow together in synergy and retain a sense of “us” and “them.” The strong healthy sense of “us” should not mean excluding others from being a part of this society.

What is pathological, however, is discrimination, racism and the lack of respect for other cultures. That is something unacceptable in any society, especially in a country such as Finland.

Why is it unacceptable? Because it runs against our sense of justice and undermines those very values that keep our society from falling into a state of moral disarray.

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36 Comments leave one →
  1. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    November 18, 2008 8:48 am

    There is a very flower-hatted document made by the TE-keskus of Lappland over tolerance issues and workplace. It goes comprehensively through every single kind of discrimination ranging form assumed heterosexuality to minorities and disabled as well as the elderly and is very noble in its aims.

    What reads there is also “No discrimination is allowed due to religious beliefs. Also no discrimination is allowed based on religious beliefs.” So yes, indeed I’d like to see the first muslim dressed in his traditional clothing shake hands with his transgendered boss.

    I have no problem with respecting people as long as they earn my respect. Discriminating cultures do not earn this respect and I don’t respect double standards. And I don’t respect demands to respect.

  2. Enrique permalink
    November 18, 2008 10:56 am

    Respect is something of a compromise when people meet. If we met, I am sure we’d show that kind of respect. We would not start imposing or insulting each other, unless we want to end up as enemies.

  3. Tiwaz permalink
    November 18, 2008 4:27 pm

    Us and them turns into us vs them very easily. That is why multicultural societies are so unstable. When things go wrong, there is less issues at finding someone to blame.

    Let’s take Germany post WW1 and pre WW2. Hyperinflation, suffering and so on.

    Whom did the rising politicians present as ones to blame? Bavarians? “Berliners”?
    No, the one group which was found in large numbers and failed to integrate itself into surrounding society. And had done so for centuries with very same results.

    Jews.

    What you do not grasp, Enrique, is that Finns are old society, old people in terms of history. Finns did not come to existence with forming of Finland as independent state. Only idiot presumes that people and society depend on country. Else we would not have kurds in Middle East or Basques in Europe who have even fought to have themselves separated from country/countries where they live.

    Finns have existed for millenias. But, true enough, we only have had ability to be people with nation for relatively short time. It is only now that we can say that we are people and culture with home. Where WE, the Finns, call the shots. Before that there was some guy in Stockholm or Moscow who did not represent us as people or culture who called all the shots.

    Notice, by the way, how Sweden broke up from what was once large kingdom (composing Denmark, Finland, Sweden and Norway at some point of time). Why? Feudal differences and because they were not alike culturally. While very, very close they still were different enough to create rifts in society.

    Russia similarily. Only through absolute dominance and marginalisation of minorities Russia is somehow stable. Soviet Union tried to unite different people and cultures under one flag. And we all know how that turned out to be. Cultural/ethnic/national rifts tore apart that country.

    There is no difficulty in defining Finn. Finn is someone who lives according to Finnish culture. No ifs, not buts.

    Nobody is excluded either, but as stated before. Unless you act like Finn, you cannot be treated like Finn. To be asked to be treated as Finn, while acting like foreigner is flat out stupid. As said, not discrimination but immigrant stupidity. Green does not turn blue just because you want it. And neither does person acting like foreigner be treated as native. And foreigner in workforce can be distruptive force because they are not predictable. That is why foreigner acting like foreigner is less likely to be hired than foreigner who has integrated himself.

    Culture is so much more than you grasp Enrique. It is essential part of our morality. It is lack of unifying cultural rules which results in your moral disarray and conflict. Situation where everyone has different rules for same situation and then try to force them upon others.

    People of different cultural norms trying to interact both sticking to their cultural norms is like two cogs of same machine trying to work against one another. It only results in something breaking up. Culture evolved to prevent just situation like that.
    It is no surprise that only “multicultural” societies are extremely young. Barely century or two behind them. In test of time, such disfunctional societies fail. Just like anarchist societies fail. They do not necessarily fail catastrophically, but generally they are forced to either be destroyed or unify and abandon anarchism/multiculturalism to remain viable.

    When more than one person is in any given area, there are equally many perspectives and opinions present. Only culture and rules of interaction it creates that makes it possible for such situation to work out well. That or fear of force…

    So, Enrique, if we met and you expected to be treated like Finn. I would expect you to present yourself like a Finn. Else you are foreigner and treated as one. Simple no?

  4. Embo permalink
    November 18, 2008 4:28 pm

    Care to give an example of the “pathological lack of respect for other cultures”? I, for one, have not encountered this at all in Finland.

    There is, however, some slight but justified criticism against fundamentalist Islam, just like there is harder criticism towards the violence endemic Finnish culture, where “men beat their spouses routinely”, as one journalist so succinctly put it.

    I do not think Finns are not distrustful towards multiculturalism as a mere fact, with people having different backgrounds. That is not big deal. However, when facts are morphed into ideologies, such as “people have different backgrounds, and all differences must be heightened to the maximum, because only that is multicultural”, the suspicions start. An attitude like this prevails in current Finnish politics, opening doors to abuse and social power games, all justified in the name of multiculturalism (where -ism signifies an ideology, not a fact). Muslims, for example, are very good at seizing the opportunities provided by multiculturalism and wielding them to their own benefit.

  5. Embo permalink
    November 18, 2008 4:43 pm

    Tiwaz: Jews were very well integrated with the German society. Their employment rate was the same as ethnic Germans’, and their contribution to German science and art was actually disproportionally large compared to their numbers.

  6. Enrique permalink
    November 18, 2008 4:49 pm

    –Whom did the rising politicians present as ones to blame? Bavarians? “Berliners”?
    No, the one group which was found in large numbers and failed to integrate itself into surrounding society. And had done so for centuries with very same results.

    Jews.

    Sometimes your comments scare me. Yes, the Jews, Romas, Communists, Anarchists and all those who were against the Nazi regime were blamed. It is always easy to pick on the weak person and send them off to concentration camps.

    Shame on you, Tiwaz, for even justifying what happened in Nazi Germany to the Jews and other people.

    Moreover, what happened in Russia with the purge is the work of a deranged man called Stalin who did not even trust his shadow.

  7. A Finnish guy permalink
    November 18, 2008 7:33 pm

    “There is no difficulty in defining Finn. Finn is someone who lives according to Finnish culture. No ifs, not buts.”

    Where can you find this one and only definition of “Finnish culture”. The idea of there being a one definitive, monolithic culture in finland lasting for “millenia”, I have to tell you, based on all historical documentation, is a pure myth.

    In the 19th century a lot of finns, and a lot of swedish speaking finns for that matter, went to great lengths to collect different kinds of folk-tales and to build up a more kind of a unified culture. This idea was brought to finland mostly from the german romantics and nationalistic romanticism. At the time, these were emancipating and progressive movements, helping to build an identity for a lot of suppressed people.

    It is pure fiction to think of something like The Kalevala, , as something that existed as such before it’s collection. But it serves as a good example: the tales collected were highly edited to make up a big and coherent whole. To think that the Kalevala tradition was shared by all the people living within the national boundaries of finland for millenia, or that it is mostly shared by all, is again just pure fiction.

    Some real and authentic research of finnish culture history and it’s formation might do some good to you. Just do understand, that there has never been one “non-confliction” finnish culture shared by all finnish people.

    But, just not to be someone aggressively pointing out blatant absurdities, I challenge you to define what this “finnish culture is” and show how and by what mechanisms it has been at all times shared by finnish people.

  8. bdd permalink
    November 19, 2008 5:27 am

    Enrique,

    You obviously have some kind of Finland obsession and that may make readers to think you suffer some mental disorder. Your writings do not improve your reputation and you might be taken as a clown due to them.

    Maybe the cure is travelling more and trying to forget Finland. Best wishes.

    BBD

  9. Tiwaz permalink
    November 19, 2008 6:10 am

    “Sometimes your comments scare me. Yes, the Jews, Romas, Communists, Anarchists and all those who were against the Nazi regime were blamed. It is always easy to pick on the weak person and send them off to concentration camps.

    Shame on you, Tiwaz, for even justifying what happened in Nazi Germany to the Jews and other people.

    Moreover, what happened in Russia with the purge is the work of a deranged man called Stalin who did not even trust his shadow.”

    Justify? Where did I justify it? I simply stated fact. Jews were not integrated to society, they had their own little circles and while they interacted with ethnic Germans, they still set themselves separate. They were, in effect, “multicultural”.

    This made them target. They were easy to single out, did not go along the flow of rest of society so they were not considered “us”. If they were considered “us” then there would have been serious issues at trying to act against them. Hitler never would have dared to raise a finger against jews if they were not group separate from native germans.

    “Where can you find this one and only definition of “Finnish culture”. The idea of there being a one definitive, monolithic culture in finland lasting for “millenia”, I have to tell you, based on all historical documentation, is a pure myth.

    In the 19th century a lot of finns, and a lot of swedish speaking finns for that matter, went to great lengths to collect different kinds of folk-tales and to build up a more kind of a unified culture. This idea was brought to finland mostly from the german romantics and nationalistic romanticism. At the time, these were emancipating and progressive movements, helping to build an identity for a lot of suppressed people.

    It is pure fiction to think of something like The Kalevala, , as something that existed as such before it’s collection. But it serves as a good example: the tales collected were highly edited to make up a big and coherent whole. To think that the Kalevala tradition was shared by all the people living within the national boundaries of finland for millenia, or that it is mostly shared by all, is again just pure fiction.

    Some real and authentic research of finnish culture history and it’s formation might do some good to you. Just do understand, that there has never been one “non-confliction” finnish culture shared by all finnish people.

    But, just not to be someone aggressively pointing out blatant absurdities, I challenge you to define what this “finnish culture is” and show how and by what mechanisms it has been at all times shared by finnish people.”

    Dumbass.

    Sorry but that is fact. There has been Finnish culture for millenias. It has nothing to do with folklore or rest of that.

    Finns were Finns before Kalevala. Finns shared language and tradition. While yes, indeed, tribes that formed Finns did fight with one another they were still all Finns. They were not any less Finns than different tribes of Germania were Germans. All those Finnish tribes had same origins. Minor influx of swedish speakers from Sweden did not change this fact.

    Shared culture does not mean there is no conflict at all. Finnish tribes did raid one another indeed. It was way of life back then. But they also shared culture which enabled them to interact and trade.

    Culture is not, unlike certain uneducated fools think, just folklore.

    Here is quote from Merriam-Webster dictionary on culture.
    “5 a: the integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon the capacity for learning and transmitting knowledge to succeeding generations b: the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group ; also : the characteristic features of everyday existence (as diversions or a way of life} shared by people in a place or time c: the set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes an institution or organization d: the set of values, conventions, or social practices associated with a particular field, activity, or societal characteristic ”

    Notice, Finnish tribes shared same or very similar (specially when compared to tribes for example in Germania, Scandinavia etc) attitudes and practices.

    Same way with conventions, social practices etc.

    In effect, they shared CULTURE. This culture has changed and evolved over the millenias, but it has always been Finnish culture. That is because Finns are people with very much single origin. This origin brought same culture with them.

    Roughly you can say that if Finn had lived in Savo, and then travelled to Tavastia or other area inhabited by Finns. They would still share so high level of cultural background that this person from Savo would fit in rather well. There is no great cultural barrier, practices varied a bit but Finns shared same culture. And not only that, but our genome is very much isolated. Meaning Finns stand out rather separate from other people of Europe.

    Finns were unified people when they arrived to Finland, and since there was rather little interaction with other people remained separated people.

    Like it or not, Finns share culture which outdates current known history. It was not formed in any date which you can find in history books. Tradition, language, religion… All those were shared by Finns already long time ago. Different dialect and some local variations does not make them independent cultures, but subcultures of same main culture.

  10. Tiwaz permalink
    November 19, 2008 6:18 am

    Latest study in Finnish history fails to give any conclusive answers on when Finns came to Finland. All that can be said is that Finns and Finland have been together for a looong time.

    And that Finns are one people. There are no radical differences in Finnish tribes which would qualify to say that they represent different culture.

  11. Enrique permalink
    November 19, 2008 10:17 am

    Well, Tiwaz, take a young aspiring Helsinkian Helsinki School of Economics graduate and compare him with a farmer who lives in Savonranta. Finland, like any nation, may look coherent from the top but if you dig deeper you will find big differences. What about a gay Finn and a Finnish Skinhead?

  12. Enrique permalink
    November 19, 2008 10:22 am

    –Justify? Where did I justify it? I simply stated fact. Jews were not integrated to society, they had their own little circles and while they interacted with ethnic Germans, they still set themselves separate. They were, in effect, “multicultural”.

    Nazi Germany was an aberration when it came to racial policy. If there is an antithesis to multiculturalism, it would be the Nazi regime. What happened in Germany during 1933-45 was not due to multiculturalism but on a deranged regime that conjured funny racial fairy tales to justify a myth that Aryans were the superior race. Alfred Rosenberg, one of the proponents of these types of thoughts, ended hanging from a nose after he was tried at Nuremberg. He was the only Nazi criminal tried at Nuremberg who did not utter any last words just before being hanged. Rosenberg was an architect by profession.

  13. Tiwaz permalink
    November 19, 2008 12:52 pm

    Farmer and stadi guy are both Finns. Both speak Finnish, both act according to similar cultural principles.

    They are, compared to population of rest of the world, practically identical. Yes, they are not exact replicas of one another. But they are very close to one another.

    I’ll make you a challenge. Show me Zambian, Colombian, Canadian, Thai, Mongolian and Australian farmers who are MORE similar to your Helsinki guy than Finnish farmer.

    You won’t. Because there is no shared background.

    As for Nazi Germany. It was the division in society, ethnic Germans and jews/gypsies/etc which enabled situation like that. They did not have unified society, division lines between Germans and jews/gypsies were easily used to create handy scapegoat to point out as being ones to blame for mishaps of Germany.

    Same policy has been used by governments across the globe. Those who do not integrate into society are divided away from this society. And when society hits hard times, people will target those who are not part of their own group as ones to blame. Less divisions there are, more difficult this is and more likely this unwanted blame is to be directed outwards.

    Divisions in society enable turning it against itself. Divisions in society weaken it. Multiculturalism is all about creating division.

  14. Enrique permalink
    November 19, 2008 2:11 pm

    –I’ll make you a challenge. Show me Zambian, Colombian, Canadian, Thai, Mongolian and Australian farmers who are MORE similar to your Helsinki guy than Finnish farmer.

    They are very much alike because they use the same technology and have the same aim: to grow crops. The difference is what they consider themselves to be and language.

    I disagree totally with you that Finnish society or any other is uniform. They may share things such as language and culture but that is all. The reason why I brought the Helsinki and Savonranta Finn as an example was to show that even though they speak the same language, they may share very different opinions about their society.

    –As for Nazi Germany. It was the division in society, ethnic Germans and jews/gypsies/etc which enabled situation like that. They did not have unified society, division lines between Germans and jews/gypsies were easily used to create handy scapegoat to point out as being ones to blame for mishaps of Germany.

    Are you justifying what happened? Nazi Germany is one example we should do everything possible to avoid. That is why it is so important to learn to live in harmony and allowing one group to use another as concentration fodder.

  15. A Finnish guy permalink
    November 19, 2008 4:24 pm

    “Finns were Finns before Kalevala. Finns shared language and tradition.”

    No they didn’t. Atleast not in the same way we share our finnish language now. Finland had a much more broader disctinction of dialects, and it was exactly the 19th project that build a more uniform finnish language. And for that matter, the sami-people still don’t share the language, and there is much historical and linguistic evidence that they were driven north from the south. Maybe the “original” or “authentic” finnish culture and language is the sami-culture and language? Should we now, by your principle, give our lands back to the sami?

    You have to understand that the 19th century was not in any simplistic way a collection of old finnish tradition, it was also a time of creation, creation of a more uniform culture, than existed before. Your dictionary definition of culture if alright, but it in no way exludes the simple fact that treditions, language and other culture elements are in costant evolution and movement. Taking influences from other countries too. It is in this manner that the whole idea of a monolithic culture is a myth.

    Calling me a “dumbass” will not change that fact.

    “All those Finnish tribes had same origins.” Can I have some concrete evidence for this and actual scientific sources, or this just your kind of mythical intuition?

    “But they also shared culture which enabled them to interact and trade.”
    Some shared some traits and some didn’t. There was no essence back then, now a lot of finns share things that didn’t even exist back then.

    “Farmer and stadi guy are both Finns. Both speak Finnish, both act according to similar cultural principles.”
    Now the first conrete thing you have given is language, even in those the dialect is different. But a immigrant can learn the language just as well. Still in clouds are these “similar culture principles”, and no actual explication of them has been made.

  16. Tiwaz permalink
    November 20, 2008 5:39 am

    “They are very much alike because they use the same technology and have the same aim: to grow crops. The difference is what they consider themselves to be and language.

    I disagree totally with you that Finnish society or any other is uniform. They may share things such as language and culture but that is all. The reason why I brought the Helsinki and Savonranta Finn as an example was to show that even though they speak the same language, they may share very different opinions about their society. ”

    You mean… They are all farmers but some of them have different cultural identity? Oh MY! How huge amount of work that required from you? Yes, and that IDENTITY is what is important here. Finnish farmer is always closer to Finn in any other field of profession compared to some foreigner who does not share anything.

    By the way, I do not justify what was done in Nazi Germany. I am saying that it is only possible in society divided like multicultural societies. One where there are no such clear and large division lines you cannot easily turn rest of population against one little minority.

    Or how you suggest that in Finland Hitler would turn everyone against Karelians? Of people from Savo? Häme?

    He couldn’t. There is no such division line which separated jews from rest of the people. Because Finns are Finns.

    Opinions about society do not make them people non-Finns. They still have learned from wee little kid the way Finnish society and culture works. And that has built their identity, their way to perceive the world. Their way to act. There are minor variations. But so does every culture. Bottom line is, Finns share national, cultural and language identity which is not shared by outsiders.

    That farmer and HKI guy still share far more than HKI guy/Farmer and just about any given foreigner. Stop thinking individuals and think big, think how they act as parts of society.

    Let’s see… Enrique and guy. We have Britain. We have guys from different parts of ENGLAND. Some of them talk in very different dialects. Are they not still English? Are they not still representatives of same English culture?

    You two need to study more about culture, anthropology and rest of before you are even worthy of debating with. You guys have no grasp of what culture is. You try to find simple, little thing when it compasses huge amount of variation but within certain limitations. Neither is it static, it lives. This causes the appearance and disappearance of variations.

    Finns share culture, have shared for ages. And yes, indeed, we share origin. This is why we share culture. 19th century only put it all in writing. It was there already. Yes, they did do generalisations. But reality is that Finnish culture had existed far before anyone started to write about it.

    Go also read on genetic study on Finnish genome studies. It shows that Finns originate from rather small population of people. While there are larger genome differences between east and west populations, it is due to influx of swedes. Nothing else. (google is your friend)

    Scientists agree that Finns have been Finns as long as we can tell. There is no huge shift in Finnish culture. It is one culture, with variations (as in all cultures) which is shared by Finnish population. Minor exception is subculture of Swedish speakers and Sami. Along with tiny immigrant minorities of gypsies, jews and tatars. Sami are not Finnish culturally, they have their own different culture. In this sense, they are not Finns. They are Sami. Apparently disticntion is lost to you finnish guy? No suprise. Lack of knowledge on issues tends to do that to you.

    Savo, Karelia, Ostrobonia etc were not different cultures ever. They always were parts of Finnish culture. Sharing their origin.

    Do you guys even grasp what in eyes of scientists does represent new and different culture? To put it simply, there has to be significant and RADICAL difference. Not just difference in dialect or that salt is thrown over left shoulder instead of right.

  17. Tiwaz permalink
    November 20, 2008 6:16 am

    You people have to learn to separate concepts of Finn and Finnish Citizen. Former is in 99% of so cases latter. But latter one is not nearly as often former.

    Enrique here is Citizen. But he is not Finn. He does not grasp the culture, he managed to learn the language but it is not culture. It shapes culture and is shaped by culture. But language is not culture.

    I can presume that because he never grasped the cultural aspect of being Finnish, he wants to destroy that culture by introduction of foreign cultures to replace Finnish one.

    Culture is beyond individual. It defines certain ground rules and general principles for how we act, how we interact, what we find good and what we find bad. We as individuals then use small space of variation to have our own view of world. But it is still is nearly always limited by our cultural rules.

    Culture cannot be examined through individual. You need larger take. When you take whole societies and examine how they act in certain situations. You will find out that huge majority will respond in certain way, with some oddballs who do not go with flow.

    Then, when you take another society and perform same experiment. They respond differently. Some radically differently, some less so. But they respond differently. Yes, in some odd cases response is rather identical, but if you change the experiment you will notice that similarity was in this small exception and in other cases these “identical” cultures respond totally differently. This is the effect of culture. It cannot be put into books, it cannot be made simple for anyone to easily comprehend and grasp.

    It is the foundation of our everyday life. It is how we identify ourselves. Enriques desire to destroy Finnish culture is desire to destroy Finnish identity.

    So, Enrique and guy. Go and study. And remember, this is something that is not studied with individuals. Cultures cannot be studied like that.

  18. Tiwaz permalink
    November 20, 2008 6:17 am

    Here article on genetics.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/science/13visual.html?_r=2&oref=slogin

    Notice how far Finns are from Norway and Sweden. Despite them being next door.

  19. Tiwaz permalink
    November 20, 2008 8:42 am

    Also possibly you gentlemen would like to familiarize yourselves with this site:
    http://www.crossculture.com/

    Commercial, yes. But author Richard Lewis has certain easily approachable explanations on culture and how it dominates our daily life and how we view the world around us.

    Including books about cultural conflict.

  20. Enrique permalink
    November 20, 2008 8:56 am

    –I can presume that because he never grasped the cultural aspect of being Finnish, he wants to destroy that culture by introduction of foreign cultures to replace Finnish one.

    You speak like a man who is filled with fear. Fortunately your twisted way of thinking is in the minority. Go right ahead and build walls around you. At the end of the day, the only person you will find inside of them is yourself and quirky racial theories that are nothing more than a house of cards.

  21. intternetnetsi permalink
    November 20, 2008 9:32 am

    “You speak like a man who is filled with fear. Fortunately your twisted way of thinking is in the minority.”

    Majority, over 50% of finns are against current immigration and 100% of people i know and asked. Well granma didnt know about immigration but after short talk she was against.
    And no i didnt do any propaganda i just answered her questions.
    Show me study where my and tiwaz opinions are minority.
    http://laivaontaynna.blogspot.com/2006/08/suomalaisten-enemmist-vastustaa.html

  22. Enrique permalink
    November 20, 2008 11:08 am

    Intternetnetsi, the big difference between your kind of thinking and mine is that you spend too much energy in erecting walls around yourself and explaining how different you are — which, by the way, is not the case. One thing is being against immigration and another one is upholding ideas a-la-Tiwaz, who does not condemn Nazi Germany for its crimes but justifies them because they were sparked by multiculturalism. It is a sad state of affairs.

  23. Tiwaz permalink
    November 20, 2008 1:19 pm

    Spoken like true cultural racist Enrique. I have never made any justification for Nazi activity.

    I have merely pointed out that divisions in society, ones like you get with multicultural idiocy, are source of great suffering to humankind. Because it is on these lines of division where conflict takes place. Societies which have least and smallest divisions in it are the strongest.

    I have always pointed out that multiculturalism is fools dream. One not grounded in reality but fiction. Just like communism.

    And history, like sad era of nazi Germany, proves me right! Divisions are poison to society.

    I see you are running low on arguments, no surprise, since you try to claim me to be nazi. “Proud” tradition of those who want to make people shamed of their identity and culture.

  24. Enrique permalink
    November 20, 2008 2:42 pm

    Come on, Tiwaz, you can make your point without getting personal. Calling me a “racist” is as ridiculous as calling the victims of the concentration camps SS officers. With respect to Nazi Germany, it was NOT due to multiculturalism but to a deranged regime that had fairy tale ideas about its racial superiority and the inferiority of others. This, as you know, led to mass murder on an industrial scale probably never seen on Earth.

    Another fallacy of your argument is that the Jews were not integrated in Nazi German society. Who was? It was all a very black-and-white world with “outsiders” either being kicked out of the country or sent as fodder to concentration camps.

    You can keep your ideas about multiculturalism and diversity. It is your choice and, since I live and respect democratic institutions, I accept your point of view even though I disagree totally with it.

    I did not accuse of you being a Nazi. I am surprised that you blame what happened in Nazi Germany to multiculturalism. It had nothing to do with that. It was, as I mentioned, a sick regime that should be always condemned forcefully.

  25. Mateus Noriller permalink
    November 20, 2008 2:58 pm

    Ok, Tiwaz and Intternetnetsi. Suppose multiculturalism sucks and doesn’t work at all.

    What do suggest then? No globalization anymore? Should countries be as separate as they were in the 15th century?

    As you said, Finnish culture has existed for millenias. It evolved, it changed, but it is still finnish. So, it is constantly changing. Now, globalization will change it even more, not matter how angry you get about this. So don’t worry. If finnish culture is as unified and strong as you claim, after globalization it will be still finnish.

  26. Enrique permalink
    November 20, 2008 3:41 pm

    Hi Mateus, this is one of the questions I have asked those that are steadfastly against multiculturalism. Tiwaz once answered by stating that foreigners should be forced to integrate 100% into Finnish society; that is, they should throw away their identity and become Finns. These types of suggestions are not only ludicrous, they are impossible to attain. I guess what proponents of anti-multiculturalism are proposing is to close Finland’s borders and isolate the country from the world. This, as you know, is something that would spell economic disaster to Finland. We live in a globalised world and that is how countries such as Finland have been able to increase trade and their standard of living.

  27. Tiwaz permalink
    November 21, 2008 5:10 am

    Enrique, what took place in Germany was only possible because of divisions in society, namely separation of jews from native Germans. If they had not insisted on being separate group, they would not have become scapegoat for nazi regime.
    They would have at least partially lost their jewish identity, yes, but it would have prevented use of division in society against jews.

    Divisions in society are always source of conflict and violence. Ireland, religious division in society. Spain, cultural division with basques. Iraq, cultural and religious division between kurds, sunnis and shias. Rwanda, cultural and ethnic division. Yugoslavia, cultural and religious division. Somalia, tribal/cultural/religious division. Need I go on? Paris riots, cultural/religious division.

    Division in society is poison to stability and peace of society. Multiculturalism is by default system which strives to create such division, basically promoting violence and conflict.

    Mateus, my solution is that when immigrant moves to another country they accept that their cultural values are no longer valid. They have to start living according to local cultural values. Same way you cannot take whatever Argentina has for currency, walk to Finnish shop and expect them to accept your alien currency you cannot walk to Finland and expect to get things go smoothly without adjusting your way of acting to local norms.

    But that is what Enrique and rest want. They want to destroy Finnish culture, deny Finns right to expect that Finnish culture is respected in Finland and that things are done the Finnish way.

    Of course, foreigners are free to ignore this idea. But then foreigners have to accept that they will not receive equal treatment and stop whining. If you try to live as if you never left home in foreign country, it is only logical that you will suffer from your stupidity.

    When in Rome, act like Romans or they will kick your ass and call you barbarian.

  28. Enrique permalink
    November 21, 2008 7:19 am

    –Enrique, what took place in Germany was only possible because of divisions in society, namely separation of jews from native Germans. If they had not insisted on being separate group, they would not have become scapegoat for nazi regime.
    They would have at least partially lost their jewish identity, yes, but it would have prevented use of division in society against jews.

    So you are blaming the Jews for what happened to them. Your assessment is wrong: these Jews WERE Germans. Many had fought in World War I. Two important facts you do not seem to understand or underestimate: 1) Jews were Germans; 2) The Nazi regime was an aberration.

    You believe incorrectly — and surprisingly! — that it was ok to murder Jews and other people who did not side with the Nazis because they had not “integrated” into that type of sick regime.

  29. Enrique permalink
    November 21, 2008 7:21 am

    –But that is what Enrique and rest want. They want to destroy Finnish culture, deny Finns right to expect that Finnish culture is respected in Finland and that things are done the Finnish way.

    If you study your words, you want just the opposite: destroy the identity of people who do not fit in your myopic world. What right do you have? None.

  30. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    November 21, 2008 7:39 am

    We are not going conquering other countries are we? These people do not have to come to Finland. Nobody forces them to come here. So its their own choice if they come.

  31. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    November 21, 2008 7:47 am

    BTW guys the biggest political scandal at the moment is the Green Women getting tiffed over an old blog entry from 2006 by a Dr. Halla-aho called “Multiculture and Women”. They complained it promotes rape. Here’s something for Enrique to make his next post. Warning: its quite strong text, but I’d expect a good analysis. (note the translation is made by someone else than the original author)
    http://vasarahammer.blogspot.com/2008/11/multiculturalism-and-woman-translation.html

  32. Tiwaz permalink
    November 21, 2008 11:30 am

    -So you are blaming the Jews for what happened to them. Your assessment is wrong: these Jews WERE Germans. Many had fought in World War I. Two important facts you do not seem to understand or underestimate: 1) Jews were Germans; 2) The Nazi regime was an aberration.

    Where am I blaming the jews? I am blaming division in society. Jews had german passport, like you have Finnish. But they were jews not germans. Like you are argentinian and not Finn.

    -You believe incorrectly — and surprisingly! — that it was ok to murder Jews and other people who did not side with the Nazis because they had not “integrated” into that type of sick regime.

    Where did I say that it was ok? It was a tragedy. But it was tragedy which can be blamed on division in society. Division like one you want to create to Finland.

    Your cultural racist attempts to claim that I am nazi are pathetic. You try to twist my words and avoid facing the issue, instead trying to result to making claims on me. Because you know that if you try to get to factual level, your claim for excellence of multiculturalism is blown to pieces.

    Let’s see if you can give straight answer. How do you think Hitler could have turned people of Germany against Bavarians if there were not jews, gypsies etc who were clearly separate group from German people?

    If he could not, it just proves that division is what enabled whole sorry mess of WW2. Cultural division in society.

  33. Enrique permalink
    November 21, 2008 1:25 pm

    –Where am I blaming the jews? I am blaming division in society. Jews had german passport, like you have Finnish. But they were jews not germans. Like you are argentinian and not Finn.

    I think that the majority of these Jews were native Germans, who had grown up in the country but were persecuted because they were Jews.

    –Where did I say that it was ok? It was a tragedy. But it was tragedy which can be blamed on division in society. Division like one you want to create to Finland.

    Who created the division you speak about during 1933-45? Was it the Jews or the Nazis? If you study the matter closely, the Nazi regime was exactly what we should try to avoid: a group of fanatics with fairy tales ideas about their identity and superiority.

    No. The Jews were not responsible for what happened. It was the Nazi regime, full stop.

  34. Enrique permalink
    November 21, 2008 1:26 pm

    –If he could not, it just proves that division is what enabled whole sorry mess of WW2. Cultural division in society.

    This is what surprises me about your reasoning. It was the Nazis that used the Jews as a scapegoat to further their racial and political policies. The Jews were innocent. The Nazi regime was the perpetrator of the crimes they committed.

  35. Tiwaz permalink
    November 24, 2008 6:41 am

    “This is what surprises me about your reasoning. It was the Nazis that used the Jews as a scapegoat to further their racial and political policies. The Jews were innocent. The Nazi regime was the perpetrator of the crimes they committed.”

    Apparently because it is logical and thus defies your thinking.
    No division = no scapegoat.

    Simple, logical. And as proven by very low amount of internal conflict in societies without divisions in them… Functional.

    Jews were not Germans culturally which is the fundamental principle of being native here. They held on to different culture due to their religion. Same way muslims do not integrate into society around them because their religion dominates their culture so strongly.

    Thus, jews did create division which turned out to be their undoing. It was natural of them to seek to remain as close to their original culture as possible. But as said, it was their undoing. More integrating approach might have turned world history into completely different road.

    Jewish societies separating themselves from surroundings was very old tradition at that point. And so was their mistreatment. Adolf simply took it few levels beyond what previous leaders had done and went from mistreatment and forced emigration to annihilation.

    Division was only thing that gave Nazis the tools to do what they did. Same way division made Rwanda, Somalia and plethora of other massacres possible.

    It is division in society which is greater threat than your foolish assumption about fanatics (which you in sense are, you are multicultural fanatic trying to push it into places where it just does not work. which honesly is nearly everywhere). Without this division to feed fanatics, there is far less options for fanatics to use in order to obtain power.

  36. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    December 10, 2008 12:13 pm

    Theres a very good book “From Alexandria to Auschwiz” on the persecution and discrimination of Jews through the history. The German’s approach or their “reasons” were nothing unique nor invented by them, but based on a culture of hate that had been rampant in Europe for centuries. And one of the main reasons of the presence of “nonintegrated” jews in Germany was the pogroms in Russia they had escaped from.

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