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Foreigners in Finland: Integration or conversation?

November 26, 2008

I recently had a very interesting chat with a colleague of mine over how much foreigners should integrate or assimilate into Finnish society. He felt that it was definitely not a matter of assimilation and that integration should only apply to the workplace. “Integration is important if you want to take part in the Finnish labor market,” he said. “Anything else, should be conversation.”

Some of the readers of this blog have very strong opinions about the matter. They believe that tax-paying foreigners who live in Finland have no other choice but to give up their identity and adapt 100% to Finnish values. This model of integration is not only impossible but ends up destroying the person’s identity and self-esteem.

In my opinion, one of the biggest setbacks of modern-day Finnish culture is in its definition of what is a Finn. It is too narrow and exclusive. If we are fair, there is a historical case for such a narrow definition. Finns are still in the process of molding a sense of national identity 91 years after the country´s independence. While it has been successful at building a strong sense of “us” and “them,” its drawback is that it has little tolerance for diversity. This is why some Finns believe that the only way for foreigners and their children can be accepted as Finns is by throwing away their identity.

One of the biggest setbacks of the present identity model is that by excluding others from being “Finns,” it has made the Finnish cultural field much smaller. One group that has suffered from this type of national identity model are Finnish expatriates and their children and grandchildren. In sum, all those who despite their diverse cultural background continue to have a sentimental bond with this country.

Finnish culture does not only include our mainland culture but a very diverse and rich group of people that were brought up in diverse cultural backgrounds in foreign lands as well as in Finland.

If there is work to do in improving our perception of ourselves as Finns it is in this area. Widen the definition to include all those who may wish to embrace this culture.

I for one hope that in the future Finns will start to look at their identity in a more open fashion that will include diverse groups irrespective of their background. This can only strengthen not weaken Finland.

96 Comments leave one →
  1. John Lammi Ph.D. permalink
    November 26, 2008 2:48 pm

    As the grandson of Finnlanders who came to the US, I am glad that the family became Americans. We inevitably have Finnish traits, and I travel to Finland yearly. My father was honorary Finnish consul in Lake Worth, Florida and spoke Finnish. They did enrich the US. After a point, we know from tons of social science research that diversity breaks down trust and co-operation in the community. So, I do sympathize with those Finns who oppose the setting up of foreign culture communities in Finland. That phenomenon has been very destructive in the US, although much praised by politicians looking for the votes of immigrant families.

  2. Enrique permalink
    November 26, 2008 3:59 pm

    Hi John and welcome to Migrant Tales. Thank you for your comment. As you know, the United States is a country made up of these “foreign communities” that you claim are destructive. Could you specify why setting up “foreign” communities in the US is bad? Are you talking about any foreign community in particular?

  3. John Lammi Ph.D. permalink
    November 26, 2008 5:56 pm

    Well, all foreign communities that look out for their own and not the national interest and promote immigration of their kin folk regardless of its impact on the country qualify.
    Actually, the US is NOT made up of foreign communities. It has been made up of Americans with gradations of traits from other lands that get blended in to the whole. Ethnic block politics has always been destructive here. Los Angeles is plagued by ethnic conflict due to portions of immigrant communities deciding not to be Americans or Angelenos but promoters of their own group. Choose any group you want with enough people to make a splash, and you have the evidence. Of course, poor Latin American immigrants (so many of them having criminally entered the country) are the most obvious. My late spouse, a Mexican guy who kept his Mexican citizenship, did not fall into that group and disapproved of it. Neither did my Ecuadorian girlfriend in high school.

  4. John Lammi Ph.D. permalink
    November 26, 2008 6:03 pm

    The breakdown of trust and co-operativeness are generally defined in the social sciences as negative, and they are the consequences of increased diversity. So, it is not just I proclaiming that there are negative consequences to increased diversity. People are more hostile to the idea of a social safety net, they vote for members of their group, they promote people of their group, people beat each other up, people cheat each other, etc.

  5. Enrique permalink
    November 26, 2008 7:19 pm

    –Well, all foreign communities that look out for their own and not the national interest and promote immigration of their kin folk regardless of its impact on the country qualify.

    Taking into account that there are large Latino, Asian minorities in Los Angeles, you are talking about your values as a white protestant American. And what is wrong if a person has the guts to leave his country and improve his life? Isn’t that the same dream that brought many European immigrants to the Americas?

    –Actually, the US is NOT made up of foreign communities. It has been made up of Americans with gradations of traits from other lands that get blended in to the whole.

    What about the immigrants? If they are from Latin America they are also “Americans.”

    –Ethnic block politics has always been destructive here. Los Angeles is plagued by ethnic conflict due to portions of immigrant communities deciding not to be Americans or Angelenos but promoters of their own group.

    What is an American? Is it being white and protestant? So the white community in Los Angeles has no fault. The immigrants are to blame? What kind of integration models are you suggesting?

    I don´t like the term “criminally entered” the US. Who is the “criminal:” the huge superpower in the north that has pillaged these countries or the victims of poor government and decades of superpower politics that has impoverished them? If I were a Mexican with any intelligence and had no opportunity, I´d move out and try to get a better standard of living elsewhere. And, by the way, aren´t the criminals the millions of “Americans” and businesses that profit from these illegal aliens because they pay them rock-bottom salaries?

    –The breakdown of trust and co-operativeness are generally defined in the social sciences as negative, and they are the consequences of increased diversity.

    Could you enlighten me and tell me specifically which modern social scientists state that increased diversity in society is synonymous with “social chaos.”

  6. Enrique permalink
    November 26, 2008 7:32 pm

    One more point: you talk about immigrants in the US as if the system had no fault. We invite immigrants to the US by granting them jobs and then we complain instead of finding more effective ways to make them members of mainstream US society.

    I think it is still pretty incredible that a hyperpower like the US has not resolved its racial and ethnic issues. Look a bit north to Canada. Maybe they are doing something right as opposed to the US.

  7. John Lammi Ph.D. permalink
    November 26, 2008 8:14 pm

    You just sound like you are attacking me and deliberately misunderstanding what I am saying. I am not interested in fighting.

  8. John Lammi Ph.D. permalink
    November 26, 2008 8:15 pm

    It sounds like you just want to fight and argue. i am not interested in that.

  9. Enrique permalink
    November 26, 2008 8:41 pm

    Fight and argue? I don’t think so. Your points of views on immigration are very one sided: either adapt to our way of life or move away. I don’t think this approach brings any insightful answers to improving the situation. By the way, I grew up in Los Angeles. The situation is different from the 1970s but the same problems must exist. These are probably due to a number of factors. They cannot be squarely blamed on immigrants from poorer countries undermining American society because they do not want to adapt. Think for a moment what it takes for a poor person to give up everything and start anew in a land where he is accepted (paid poor wages for being an illegal alien) and despised because he does not have the same opportunities as other people.

  10. intternetnetsi permalink
    November 27, 2008 2:36 am

    -Could you enlighten me and tell me specifically which modern social scientists state that increased diversity in society is synonymous with “social chaos.”

    “When the data were adjusted for class, income and other factors, they showed that the more people of different races lived in the same community, the greater the loss of trust. ‘They don’t trust the local mayor, they don’t trust the local paper, they don’t trust other people and they don’t trust institutions,’ said Prof Putnam. ‘The only thing there’s more of is protest marches and TV watching.’”
    Harvard professor Robert D. Putnam

    I think you knew that already but actively forget because it fight against your religion.

  11. Tiwaz permalink
    November 27, 2008 5:51 am

    See Enrique. Scientists say same I have.

    Division is poison for stable, functional society.

    Promoting such division is fundamentally attempt to kill the society. I think it might in moral sense be treason, if committed by citizen. Or agitation/saboteurism if committed by non-citizen.

    Also, have you noticed that those who embrace values and practices of their new homeland (why should foreigner keep their former habits if they change country? They can choose, live like they did and not move. Or move for better life and change themselves) are ones who succeed. Those who stick to their old ways are ones that end up at the bottom. It is, effectively, their own fault.

    By the way, Canada has not experienced anything like influx of immigrants of totally different cultural background. But when they did, problems started to appear. And even before that…

    http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=6100136
    http://communities.canada.com/vancouversun/blogs/thesearch/archive/2008/01/10/are-canada-s-ethnic-minorities-homophobic.aspx

    Oh… Look at this:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7273870.stm

  12. Enrique permalink
    November 27, 2008 10:03 am

    Intternetnetsi, who ever told you that a society comprising of different diverse groups was perfect? Matter of fact, who ever told you that a monocultural society is free from problems? There are problems in both societies and they must be resolved. We won’t resolve them by kicking out all those who are not like us nor closing our countries borders and hiding inside a shell.

  13. Enrique permalink
    November 27, 2008 10:06 am

    OK, Tiwaz, your position is well known to many. Your integration model, or by perkele, is unattainable. People do not give up their identities and personalities as if they were handkerchiefs. That you must understand. Moreover, it is their RIGHT in a EU country like Finland to retain their culture.
    I never said that a multicultural society is free from problems. However, for many people as myself it is the normalest thing in the world. It is not an issue nor is it a threat — it is an opportunity.

  14. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    November 27, 2008 2:52 pm

    And where is the Finns’ RIGHT as a country to retain its culture?

    You’re as free as you wish not to integrate. I am as free to treat you as the outsider you are.

  15. Enrique permalink
    November 27, 2008 3:36 pm

    Who says that a Finn does not have the right to retain his/her culture? One-way integration if you ask me.

  16. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    November 27, 2008 3:38 pm

    I think John Lammi is referring to the “football team” phenomenon. A successful team must a) listen to the coach, b) play together and c) play by the rules so they don”t get yellow cards. Really it doesn’t matter where one is from as long as they want to be a part of the team and play football. If they instead want to hold the ball all to themselves, don’t listen to teh coach or start playing some other game or do not follow the rules of football – the team is in trouble. Of course the team then doesn’t want those players to stick around.

    Multiculturalism for me doesn’t mean theres a load of foreigners living in the same house. Finland has always been diverse. We live in the house and share tea same laundry room. There is a list, you reserve your turn, and everything goes smoothly as long as everyone respects the rules made for common good.

    Multiculturalism for me means theres someone washing his laundry on my turn, and when I point it out he starts screaming “racism” . So maybe their culture doesn’t know the concept of time. Fine. Maybe I’ll be a multiculturalist too and take a dump on his bedsheets as thats my cultures response for washing on my turn.

  17. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    November 27, 2008 3:41 pm

    The foreigners come to Finland out of their own free will. Nobody forces them here. So it is not one way at all, they are as free to leave if they don’t like Finland as they were free to come over.

  18. Enrique permalink
    November 27, 2008 10:04 pm

    I think your argument is wrong. They come to Finland to work, pay taxes and are residents. Why does an intelligent person as yourself use such a dumb argument: love it or leave it? People are usually pretty passive about their society. So, if somebody has the courage to speak out, why would he be an enemy and why would you want him/her to leave? You should keep him/her here because we need people who can speak out and show leadership.

    –Multiculturalism for me doesn’t mean theres a load of foreigners living in the same house. Finland has always been diverse. We live in the house and share tea same laundry room. There is a list, you reserve your turn, and everything goes smoothly as long as everyone respects the rules made for common good.

    Are these social rules you are talking about? Finland was diverse until the post-war period to 1995, when it was pretty secluded. Probably what we are doing now is erasing the negative aspects of that period, which included a dramatic drop in foreigners and diverse cultures living in Finland. When some talk about 100% integration, they are people living in this era (1945-1995).

    So with more foreigners in Finland, we could say that the country is returning back to normal.

  19. Enrique permalink
    November 27, 2008 10:08 pm

    –Multiculturalism for me means theres someone washing his laundry on my turn, and when I point it out he starts screaming “racism” . So maybe their culture doesn’t know the concept of time. Fine. Maybe I’ll be a multiculturalist too and take a dump on his bedsheets as thats my cultures response for washing on my turn.

    No, no, no… All this you are pointing out is chronic cultural miscommunication. If both took the time to learn from each other and they RESPECTED each other this would never happen. If one, either the foreigner or Finn, is pulling a fast one, that is when hell is going to break loose. So, you see, it all boils down to respect and tolerance.

  20. intternetnetsi permalink
    November 27, 2008 10:24 pm

    -Intternetnetsi, who ever told you that a society comprising of different diverse groups was perfect?

    Ah.. first YOU ASK who said and when i tell then you attack to me.
    And youre one who is telling that multiculture is much better and 7th heaven.

    -No, no, no… All this you are pointing out is chronic cultural miscommunication. If both took the time to learn from each other and they RESPECTED each other this would never happen.

    That happend to me, when i told about how think should be done what i got? You racist! you hate us!… And im not alone in this, friend of mine bought own washer because of richness of culture.
    Well think how far i continued to telling how things are done and just trashed their laundry.

  21. Tiwaz permalink
    November 28, 2008 5:09 am

    -No, no, no… All this you are pointing out is chronic cultural miscommunication. If both took the time to learn from each other and they RESPECTED each other this would never happen. If one, either the foreigner or Finn, is pulling a fast one, that is when hell is going to break loose. So, you see, it all boils down to respect and tolerance.

    Yes, and as this is FINLAND, natives are FINNS and native culture is FINNISH…

    It means that first and foremost immigrants learn to respect FINNISH culture. Finnish culture tells there is turn list to wash laundry. I do not care, nobody cares, what your culture tells about that. Here there is list, period. You put name on list, you do as the rest. And all is well.

    You want to do stuff your way, foreigner way, then you are causing problems. You are refusing to work in society in way which causes least issues to everyone.

    You deliberately try to twist my point Enrique. I have always said I do not expect foreigners to become Finns. They just lack the background.

    But I do, and have every right to do so as native, that foreigners learn to act according to Finnish cultural norms in Finland. I have no intention, nor reason, to understand that in your ass backwards multicultural hellhole something is considered good and proper if it is against Finnish concept of good and proper. Learn to behave in way which is good and proper in Finnish context, do not expect me to tolerate your bad behavior and treat as if you were behaving well.

    You are not “erasing” anything here Enrique. Finland has always worked under one functional culture. Finnish. Yes, we have had handful of Swedes or Russians who have acted under their own cultural context, but that was when they controlled this land. Their culture started and ended at the doorsteps of their houses. When they left, they took their culture with them. Because it was never part of Finnish culture. So there is nothing to fix, as nothing is broken.

    I do not want to see foreigners come here and again act as if they own the place. We own the place. Our forefathers forged this country into what it is. We continue that work. Respect our history, our culture and follow it’s norms. In privacy of your home, live as if you had never left your home country if you do not disturb the neighbors by doing so or commit crimes. But when you leave your house, you enter Finnish society. Finnish society functions well because it follows one set of rules for interaction and behavior. Finnish cultural rules.

    Our cultural minorities do that way too. Their culture is adjusted not to be in conflict with Finnish culture. That is why there is coexistence with little division or conflict.

    But you Enrique, you racist want to have Finnish culture replaced and dominated by foreign cultures. That foreigners, who do not have generations of unbroken connection to this land have more say on how to act in Finland than natives.

    You are one sick man Enrique.

  22. Enrique permalink
    November 28, 2008 6:16 am

    –It means that first and foremost immigrants learn to respect FINNISH culture.

    Have you learned to respect other cultures?

    –You deliberately try to twist my point Enrique. I have always said I do not expect foreigners to become Finns. They just lack the background.

    I remember very well what you wrote: foreigners should give us their culture and become Finns.

    –Learn to behave in way which is good and proper in Finnish context, do not expect me to tolerate your bad behavior and treat as if you were behaving well.

    The first person that should learn how to behave is you. Just read your comments and think for a while what you are saying.

    –I do not want to see foreigners come here and again act as if they own the place.
    Yes, true, but you should stop acting as if YOU owned the place. Let cultural bygones by cultural bygones.

    –But you Enrique, you racist want to have Finnish culture replaced and dominated by foreign cultures.

    OH GOD! I have been exposed. Now my plan is foiled!!

    –You are one sick man Enrique.

    Yes, I am catching a cold. It must be terrible to live in such fear and pigheadedness. Lighten up. It is bad for your heart.

  23. Enrique permalink
    November 28, 2008 6:30 am

    –Ah.. first YOU ASK who said and when i tell then you attack to me.
    And youre one who is telling that multiculture is much better and 7th heaven.

    If you travel, for example, in the modern world, multiculturalism is a normal thing. It is not an issue because it is normal. In Finland it seems that the ISSUE is if we should allow foreigners to live in the country.

    –That happend to me, when i told about how think should be done what i got? You racist! you hate us!…

    I don’t know the case but it is unfortunate that it came to that. For persons to hurl racial slurs at each other means that the situation got so tense that it collapsed. It is like when two Finns disagree on something and start cussing. That kind of insult shows a total collapse in communication.

  24. Tiwaz permalink
    November 28, 2008 7:44 am

    -Have you learned to respect other cultures?

    Yes, when I go abroad, I respect local culture and try to act in accordance. Or at minimum avoid conflict with it.

    -I remember very well what you wrote: foreigners should give us their culture and become Finns.

    I have repeatedly stated that they must learn to act Finnish. They have to accept that their culture is not an asset here for them, and following it’s norms is going to be a burden. They have to accept and adapt to Finnish culture as means of interaction in Finland.

    -The first person that should learn how to behave is you. Just read your comments and think for a while what you are saying.

    How about you reading your arguments and thinking how they look in eyes of Finn who loves his country and culture. Some foreigner coming and telling we should not expect foreigners who come to this country voluntarily to obey our culture… Instead expecting us, Finns, to appease your foreign ass.

    -Yes, true, but you should stop acting as if YOU owned the place. Let cultural bygones by cultural bygones.

    Finnish culture is not gone, thank god, despite your best attempt. I, as Finn, DO own the place. We, FINNS own this place. We are natives, foreigners should adapt to our culture.

    -Yes, I am catching a cold. It must be terrible to live in such fear and pigheadedness. Lighten up. It is bad for your heart.

    You are sick in your mind. Only sick man would want to destroy another society. You are like OBL. Only instead of sending men to blow up themselves you try to cause others to go and try to destroy cultures using other means.

    Both you and OBL have same goal, force others to lose their native culture and replace it with your own twisted one.

    Multiculturalism is not normal in modern world. Everywhere where it sets foot we see conflict caused by it. It is curse of modern world, like religion was curse of pre-modern world.

  25. Enrique permalink
    November 28, 2008 8:01 am

    –Yes, when I go abroad, I respect local culture and try to act in accordance. Or at minimum avoid conflict with it.

    Try doing the same in Finland, OUR country.

    –I have repeatedly stated that they must learn to act Finnish. They have to accept that their culture is not an asset here for them, and following it’s norms is going to be a burden. They have to accept and adapt to Finnish culture as means of interaction in Finland.

    Right. Give up your identity and adapt to Finnish values. One thing is knowing what they are and another is adapting to them.

    –Instead expecting us, Finns, to appease your foreign ass.

    If a psychologist would read this statement, it would show fear, lack of self-esteem and having an inferiority complex.

    –You are sick in your mind. Only sick man would want to destroy another society. You are like OBL. Only instead of sending men to blow up themselves you try to cause others to go and try to destroy cultures using other means.

    Give me a break! HAHAHAHAHA! I don’t have such power. I am only ONE person writing a humble blog and writing down my ideas. You would probably freak out if there were two or more of me.

    –Multiculturalism is not normal in modern world. Everywhere where it sets foot we see conflict caused by it. It is curse of modern world, like religion was curse of pre-modern world.

    You live in a cultural time warp where it is stuffy, frigid and pathological.

  26. Tiwaz permalink
    November 28, 2008 3:03 pm

    -Try doing the same in Finland, OUR country.

    If it is our country, why you seek to destroy it? And as I show respect to NATIVE cultures. I expect foreigners like you respect MY culture when in MY native land.

    You are here trying to push your foreign values to replace mine.

    -Right. Give up your identity and adapt to Finnish values. One thing is knowing what they are and another is adapting to them.

    Well, if you are too stupid to learn, don’t whine when you are treated like outsider. Because by choice of not respecting local culture you make yourself outsider.

    -If a psychologist would read this statement, it would show fear, lack of self-esteem and having an inferiority complex.

    Nah, it would show determination, good self-esteem and strong self image. I know who and what I am, I am FINN.

    -Give me a break! HAHAHAHAHA! I don’t have such power. I am only ONE person writing a humble blog and writing down my ideas. You would probably freak out if there were two or more of me.

    You try to corrupt others to think in your twisted way. That makes you in one sense more dangerous than Osama. Because if you have your way, your multiculturalism will kill far more people than Osama ever. Hell, it already has!

    Deathtoll from both Yugoslavia, Iraq, Rwanda and Somalia exceed Osama thousandfold… Many times.

  27. Enrique permalink
    November 28, 2008 3:49 pm

    Wow, now you are equating me with Osama Bin Laden and predicting “race wars.” Don’t you think you are acting ridiculous? Who can take you seriously when you think like that? Just because some foreigners come to live in Finland, ask to be respected and have the opportunity to progress in this society does not mean the end of the world or of the Finns.

  28. intternetnetsi permalink
    November 28, 2008 4:44 pm

    Read news, live in here. Then start to write.

  29. Tiwaz permalink
    November 29, 2008 12:00 pm

    -Wow, now you are equating me with Osama Bin Laden and predicting “race wars.” Don’t you think you are acting ridiculous? Who can take you seriously when you think like that? Just because some foreigners come to live in Finland, ask to be respected and have the opportunity to progress in this society does not mean the end of the world or of the Finns.

    Yes, you are trying to twist another society to fit mould which you like. Just like Osama who wants to turn world islamic. You want to turn it multicultural.

    Foreigners have to change, because Finland will not change unless Finns want to change it. And since it fits us we keep it as it is, with minor adjustments over time. Which do not include pampering foreigners.

    Reality is, multiculturalism does not work. Eveyrwhere where you have multiple cultures inhabiting same place you see conflict, unless one of them dominates the others. It is reality. There is no way to make it work in situation like that.

    You saying that “multiculturalism would work if only XXX” is as stupid as saying “police would not be needed if everyone respected the law. Reality says that cultures do not get along nicely any more than everyone would in any realistic world be law abiding. Some cultures do get along just peachy, most do not. Further apart they are in their core values and principles, more radical the conflict. It is most obvious in conflict there is between muslim immigrants and Europe.

  30. Enrique permalink
    November 29, 2008 3:20 pm

    –Yes, you are trying to twist another society to fit mould which you like. Just like Osama who wants to turn world islamic. You want to turn it multicultural.

    This is a joke, right? No-one can make such a connection unless…

    –You saying that “multiculturalism would work if only XXX” is as stupid as saying “police would not be needed if everyone respected the law.

    Read history and stay a bit in Finland before November 30, 1939. You will find a very diverse society with people from many cultures. The problem is that you grew up in a period where there was very little diversity. If you are about 30, you were born in the 1970s, when a foreigner was as rare in Finland as a Finn on the moon. By having more foreigners in Finland and embracing diversity we are merely returning back to what we were and not to what war, geopolitics and the USSR tried to turn Finland into.

  31. intternetnetsi permalink
    November 29, 2008 10:37 pm

    -Read history and stay a bit in Finland before November 30, 1939. You will find a very diverse society with people from many cultures.

    Look todays finland and find very diverse society from many cultures where most are united under “finnish”. Thats whats finnishness is about, we share mainly same principles and everyone is allowed to say what they think but currently multiculturalism means that we have to give up our culture because of really small minority. If someone moved in in 1930s that ment he had to adapt and work because there werent any multiculturalist yelling how we have to accept their culture and that worked fine. Offending and non fitting parts of newcomers culture were efficiently removed by local majority who didnt accept that.
    Dont fit = no work = starve or leave. Thats efficient way what was how it worked.

    I talked to my granma about 1939 and i found that in his brothers company there were jude, gypsy and russian (well his parents were, he were finnish). They all were finnish under “how to be finnish”. Brother died in war.
    My granfather told about old times when “uitto” groups were sleeping in his home, there were russians and other minorities but no one really cared because they didnt want anything special.

    So as you see there is difference, major difference.

  32. Enrique permalink
    November 30, 2008 10:56 am

    –Look todays finland and find very diverse society from many cultures where most are united under “finnish”. Thats whats finnishness is about, we share mainly same principles and everyone is allowed to say what they think but currently multiculturalism means that we have to give up our culture because of really small minority.

    What is Finnishness? I think it should be a culture that accepts other people from diverse backgrounds. Hence we come from different backgrounds but we all consider Finland our home.

    Your grandma is right. I am sorry to hear about her brother. I understand what you are saying. Back then, during the Winter and Continuation War, Finland wasn’t even half a century old and was not only building a national identity, but being attacked by the former Soviet Union. However, today we live in a new century, we have a national identity and that identity should include, in my opinion, people from diverse backgrounds.

  33. Tiwaz permalink
    December 1, 2008 5:09 am

    -What is Finnishness? I think it should be a culture that accepts other people from diverse backgrounds. Hence we come from different backgrounds but we all consider Finland our home.

    You, FOREIGNER think it should be. You still have not grasped it have you. Finnish culture is not about what you foreigners want, but what WE, FINNS, want. We do not want to have our culture torn apart and turned into some kind of mess just because it fits your twisted desires to destroy Finnish culture.

    Your opinion is worthless when it comes to Finnish culture, as only Finns can decide what Finnish culture is like.

    -This is a joke, right? No-one can make such a connection unless…

    Sadly no. As you say yourself… You think, you want. You are all about how you want Finnish culture to be. And you are not a Finn. No amount of trying to say so makes you so. You make yourself to be outsider by not following Finnish culture.

    -Read history and stay a bit in Finland before November 30, 1939. You will find a very diverse society with people from many cultures. The problem is that you grew up in a period where there was very little diversity. If you are about 30, you were born in the 1970s, when a foreigner was as rare in Finland as a Finn on the moon. By having more foreigners in Finland and embracing diversity we are merely returning back to what we were and not to what war, geopolitics and the USSR tried to turn Finland into.

    And as said, those who were here accepted that they have to live in Finland under rules of Finnish culture! They did not come here and tell how we, natives, should live. When those outsiders came, they came with humble approach of living in Finland as Finnish culture says.

    Finnishness is being Finn, being Finn is about following and respecting Finnish culture as your own culture, it’s core values and traditions.

  34. Tiwaz permalink
    December 1, 2008 5:36 am

    Bottomline Enrique.

    You can be Citizen of Finland without being Finn. Like you are as example.
    But do not presume to be treated as Finn if you do not act and speak like Finn.

    Those are two different things.

    And don’t expect to have equal job opportunities in Finland if you cannot act and speak properly. This is too small country to have huge amount of open jobs for “no speak”-immigrants. Immigrant wants job, immigrant better make themselves employable.

    That means, learning to act and speak. Can’t handle that? How about trying your luck someplace else?

  35. Enrique permalink
    December 1, 2008 6:54 am

    Can’t handle nor accept diversity? Why not move to the moon?

  36. Tiwaz permalink
    December 2, 2008 6:08 am

    Why would I? I have my own country, Finland. Which you are trying to destroy Enrique.

    You move away. You came to my country, I did not drag you in. You are one who wants to change society I like, to something that has repeatedly been proven not to work and only cause misery.

  37. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    December 2, 2008 12:36 pm

    “No, no, no… All this you are pointing out is chronic cultural miscommunication. If both took the time to learn from each other and they RESPECTED each other this would never happen. If one, either the foreigner or Finn, is pulling a fast one, that is when hell is going to break loose. So, you see, it all boils down to respect and tolerance.”

    No no no… It is the common laundry room and the common laundry room rules, it is simple – you want to do laundry – you obey the rules. You don’t want to obey the rules – no need to do laundry. Why should I respect some stupid idiot doing his laundry on my turn? It is his problem to respect the rules.

  38. Enrique permalink
    December 2, 2008 1:45 pm

    How do human beings resolve such an issue? By sitting down, talking about it and agreeing amicably.

  39. Enrique permalink
    December 2, 2008 1:47 pm

    –You move away. You came to my country.

    Please show me the deed. Oh, you have none? Better stop making pipedream demands.

    But thing about it. You might find what you are searching for on the moon.

  40. Tiwaz permalink
    December 2, 2008 2:52 pm

    -How do human beings resolve such an issue? By sitting down, talking about it and agreeing amicably.

    Actually, if you look at REAL world, such cultural conflicts are solved by shooting those who insult your culture. And ones who survive call the rules.

    Or have you missed how your multicultural societies fail to do this sitting stuff and go for shooting?

  41. Enrique permalink
    December 2, 2008 7:53 pm

    –Actually, if you look at REAL world, such cultural conflicts are solved by shooting those who insult your culture. And ones who survive call the rules.

    Or have you missed how your multicultural societies fail to do this sitting stuff and go for shooting?

    The problem in your analogy is that you blame ALL OF SOCIETIES evils on multiculturalism. In your world it would mean live in monoculturalism, hold hands and sing Kumbaya contentedly and naively.

  42. John Lammi Ph.D. permalink
    December 2, 2008 10:39 pm

    This Los Angeles Times article illustrates the fierce ethnic conflict of a multicultural city…………………………………
    The Los Angeles Board of Education met in closed session this morning, but did not take action on the fate of schools Supt. David L. Brewer, who faces increasing pressure to step down midway through a four-year contract.

    Although board members and sources close to them suggested that the votes were there to dismiss Brewer, a complication arose with the absence of board member Marguerite Poindexter LaMotte. LaMotte is representing the Los Angeles Unified School District in San Diego at a weeklong meeting of the California School Boards Assn., and she reportedly declined to return to deliberate Brewer’s future.

    Civic leaders press Brewer to leave L.A….
    L.A. Now: Brewer’s job may be on the line today
    LaMotte is the board’s only African American member, and officials were reluctant to act against Brewer, who also is black, without LaMotte in the room. LaMotte’s trip to San Diego — a two- to three-hour drive from Los Angeles — had been scheduled some time ago.

    Early this year, Brewer addressed criticism of his administration by bringing in veteran retired superintendent Ramon C. Cortines to manage day-to-day operations. That move is widely viewed inside and outside the district as a positive. It has failed, however, to repair critics’ perceptions that Brewer’s own management skills are not equal to the task of managing the tortured politics and current funding crisis in the nation’s second-largest school system.

    The situation entails some political risk for Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa, who would inevitably be associated with dismissing Brewer. Board members crucial to the vote were elected with funds that the mayor raised. And board President Monica Garcia is an especially close ally of the mayor; it is unlikely she would act without the mayor’s full knowledge and tacit approval, political observers said.

    LaMotte, on the other hand, defeated a challenger supported by the mayor’s allies. And part of her winning strategy was to accuse the mayor of trying to disenfranchise the black community by imposing his will on schools that serve the black community.

    Already, there have been efforts to minimize backlash, and there is some evidence that such efforts are not an unqualified success.

    Monday night, Garcia personally called to offer a heads-up to black City Council members Jan Perry (leaving a message), Herb Wesson and Bernard Parks.

    Perry said she tried twice unsuccessfully to call Garcia back, but found out about Brewer from another city official.

    “I am shocked that they are at this point, particularly since test scores have been reported to be on the rise,” Perry said. “It appears he has been on the right track in a system that is byzantine and complex to anyone, especially an outsider.”

    Parks this morning said he questioned Garcia about why Brewer was being asked to leave.

    “She said ‘It’s an exempt position, so we don’t have to have cause,'” Parks said. “I said, ‘Is there a reason?’ And she said, ‘If you’re asking me for a reason, it’s that he’s not moving fast enough.'”

    Parks also noted that district test scores have been improving and that Brewer inherited serious problems, such as a payroll fiasco, that were not of his making.

    “I don’t know anybody who can be brought in from the outside and deliver miraculous results in two years,” Parks said. “So I was shocked. It’s just bizarre.”

    Parks has his own experience as a black civic leader forced out of a high-profile job. Former Mayor James K. Hahn declined to offer Parks a second term as Los Angeles police chief, a move that cost Hahn key support from black voters. Many of those voters switched to Villaraigosa, who defeated Hahn.

    Now Villaraigosa is facing reelection in the spring. And although he doesn’t want to alienate black voters, he, unlike Hahn, is not facing a well-funded opponent.

  43. Enrique permalink
    December 2, 2008 11:57 pm

    Hi John, and I am happy you could join us again. Looks like you got quite a challenge. As you know, all societies have problems. What do you think would be a solution to the one in LA?

  44. Tiwaz permalink
    December 3, 2008 5:17 am

    -The problem in your analogy is that you blame ALL OF SOCIETIES evils on multiculturalism. In your world it would mean live in monoculturalism, hold hands and sing Kumbaya contentedly and naively.

    Because in nonmulticultural societies they are far lesser.

    Finland, stable, peaceful and nice.
    Japan, stable, peaceful and nice.
    Iceland, stable, peaceful and nice (though they screwed up royally with their economy).

    Where there are no divisions in population, there is little internal conflict. Issues are minor and related to individuals. Not groups as whole.

    Where there is multiculturalism, you have group warfare, internal conflict and issues are no longer minor or individual related. They are group related, group on one side of division fighting the group on other side of division.

    Multiculturalism is all about divisions. And divisions are BAD. There is no way division can ever be good for society. Sooner or later it will become starting point of violent conflict.

  45. Enrique permalink
    December 3, 2008 7:08 am

    –Because in nonmulticultural societies they are far lesser.

    There are other problems but it does not mean that “monocultural” societies are a refuge of tranquility. You have power struggles, purges, civil wars and crazy racial fantasies like with Nazi Germany…

    What you might difficult to accept are the changes that multiculturalism brings and the inability of society to deal with its discrimination issues. If you want a culprit, why not look at the economy. Rich countries such as Finland, in order to maintain their high standard of living, must get raw materials from poor countries. Competition forces them to keep a tab on labor overheads. Since everyone is partying and enjoying our high standard of living, we would care less about having enough children. In the end our need for growth causes: (1) environmental destruction; (2) aging population; (3) people who cannot make a living in their countries; (4) wars by industrialized countries on poorer nations to get commodities; (5) etc.

    Your answer to a society’s ills is too simplistic, one-sided, and misleading.

    –Multiculturalism is all about divisions. And divisions are BAD. There is no way division can ever be good for society. Sooner or later it will become starting point of violent conflict.

    So, tell me, what must a society do if it has people from diverse cultures? And PLEASE do not give me a simplistic answer: Learn how to behave as Finns! Immigrants (EU and non-EU) who have access to information on Finnish culture surely want to integrate to the point they can function effectively in this society. Humans are very adaptive irrespective of their background. That is rule number one you learn from childhood.

  46. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    December 3, 2008 9:11 am

    “There are other problems but it does not mean that “monocultural” societies are a refuge of tranquility. You have power struggles, purges, civil wars and crazy racial fantasies like with Nazi Germany…”

    An what do you call LA? “power struggles, purges, civil wars and crazy racial fantasies”.

    And that was just the problem, Nazi Germany wanted to change from a multicultural society to a monocultural one.

    “So, tell me, what must a society do if it has people from diverse cultures?”
    Form a society with common goals and if necessary weed out the tribalism. Many African countries have had to do this, some with more or less success. It doesn’t make the people happy but if we look at Asia you have examples like Singapore… Indonesia is doing again the monocultural hegemony thing that causes conflicts.

  47. Tiwaz permalink
    December 3, 2008 9:35 am

    -So, tell me, what must a society do if it has people from diverse cultures? And PLEASE do not give me a simplistic answer: Learn how to behave as Finns! Immigrants (EU and non-EU) who have access to information on Finnish culture surely want to integrate to the point they can function effectively in this society. Humans are very adaptive irrespective of their background. That is rule number one you learn from childhood.

    It is the only functional solution.
    Finns will not accept some alternative “Esperanto-culture” to replace Finnish culture. Other cultures will always be in conflict with Finnish culture.

    Thus, only solution to stable society is one where everyone lives according to principles of Finnish culture. If immigrants native culture has some parts which violate principles/traditions/values of Finnish culture… Immigrant either learns to abandon those parts of their native culture or move away.

    Result is society where everyone knows how to interact, what is acceptable and what is not. There are far less divisions, leading to less conflict.

  48. Enrique permalink
    December 3, 2008 5:41 pm

    –And that was just the problem, Nazi Germany wanted to change from a multicultural society to a monocultural one.

    I don’t know why this point is brought up. Is it because it was pathological or a “noble” attempt to free Germans of German-native Jews? Are you justifying it by using Singapore and Indonesia as examples? Do societies have a right to kick out minorities in order to increase monoculturalism?

  49. Enrique permalink
    December 3, 2008 5:43 pm

    –Finns will not accept some alternative “Esperanto-culture” to replace Finnish culture. Other cultures will always be in conflict with Finnish culture.

    I understand your point but what about if we look at it this way: strong feeling of “us” and strong feeling within the “them” group; both groups, however, form part of Finnish society. Cultural knowledge is vital. It works even better when it is a two-way street.

  50. Calculator Man permalink
    December 4, 2008 10:00 pm

    Tiwaz: Guess the only problem is that you just don’t know how to get along with different cultures or that you are not used to live with them. You should try it out…maybe you can learn something and realize that also other cultures have something positive in it. We are not all bad guys! Did you know that Finland has the highest suicide rate in Europe…something what you can be proud of in your great culture…

    • Enrique permalink
      December 6, 2008 7:40 am

      Calculator Man, many thanks for your recommendations to Tiwaz.

  51. Tiwaz permalink
    December 5, 2008 8:59 am

    -Guess the only problem is that you just don’t know how to get along with different cultures or that you are not used to live with them. You should try it out…maybe you can learn something and realize that also other cultures have something positive in it. We are not all bad guys! Did you know that Finland has the highest suicide rate in Europe…something what you can be proud of in your great culture…

    So? Suicides? See if I care. It is still MY country, MY culture and MY society. If it is changed, it is changed because I (that is, we Finns. Natives) want to change it. Not because some stupid and lazy foreigner cannot get their head around to understand out culture in our country but demands us to change it.

    I know how to get along with other cultures. When in their country, their rules. When in my country, my rules. Simple and historically proven to be working.

    In suicide you kill yourself. These multicultural “heavens” you speak of are places where people start killing each other en masse due to multiculturalism creating divisions in population.

    Paris riots, UK white flight, US race riots, Canada immigrant crime, Yugoslavia civil war, Rwanda massacre, Iraq civil war… List is endless. I choose my culture, with it’s flaws and all, over every other culture in this world. Because it is MY culture.

    -I understand your point but what about if we look at it this way: strong feeling of “us” and strong feeling within the “them” group; both groups, however, form part of Finnish society. Cultural knowledge is vital. It works even better when it is a two-way street.

    “Us” and “them” is division. Haven’t you still gotten to your thick skull that this is surefire way to civil war? There must be no “us” and “them”. Only “us”.

    And since this is Finland, us means FINNISH. They do not form part of Finnish society, they form their own society. Because Finnish society works from Finnish cultural base. You cannot be part of Finnish society if you cannot act according to Finnish cultural norms.

    Why should we, Finns, compromise our identity, society and culture to appease some immigrant? Why immigrant has any right to demand us to change our home to fit them instead of them fitting into our home?

    • Enrique permalink
      December 6, 2008 7:30 am

      –So? Suicides? See if I care. It is still MY country, MY culture and MY society. If it is changed, it is changed because I (that is, we Finns. Natives) want to change it. Not because some stupid and lazy foreigner cannot get their head around to understand out culture in our country but demands us to change it.

      Why do you get personal? Can’t you debate an issue in a amicable fashion? About change?… It has happened. There are no longer stupid laws that forbid outsiders from taking part in this society. Read up on Finnish history and look at the latest laws that have been promulgated. You would be surprised how much things have changed.

  52. intternetnetsi permalink
    December 5, 2008 7:50 pm

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/education/article1600686.ece
    Should i add news about muslim nurses not cleaning hands or christas parties or “pig particles” etc..?
    Its nice to have multicultural society.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 6, 2008 7:16 am

      Wow, so on the basis of this questionable article we should continue to destroy other cultures and their identities?
      What are you trying to say? Is this your whole agument against multiculturalism?

  53. Tiwaz permalink
    December 6, 2008 2:26 pm

    -Why do you get personal? Can’t you debate an issue in a amicable fashion? About change?… It has happened. There are no longer stupid laws that forbid outsiders from taking part in this society. Read up on Finnish history and look at the latest laws that have been promulgated. You would be surprised how much things have changed.

    Those laws are made by imbeciles who do not have contact with problems they cause with them. If every idiot in Eduskunta were forced to move into neighbourhoods where they pack all those wonderful unintegrating immigrants…

    You can bet those laws would be different.

    When they would fear crossing the park on foot (instead of using driver or EK taxi fares) and fear rape gangs in shadows they would be less eager to be politically correct and more interested in protecting society they were elected to protect.

    And as said, if you want to debate, START SUPPORTING YOUR CLAIMS. This far you always say that facts I present are false, but you never support your claim with any evidence.

    I know why you don’t do that, because you have no facts to counter mine. So be a man and admit that you are wrong.

  54. intternetnetsi permalink
    December 6, 2008 7:42 pm

    -Wow, so on the basis of this questionable article we should continue to destroy other cultures and their identities?
    What are you trying to say? Is this your whole agument against multiculturalism?

    Destroy? they can have their culture in their country, if culture doesnt offend finnish values then they can keep it.
    Its not whole but main, read http://www.halla-aho.com/scripta/index.html to see what i think. And i mean read all.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 6, 2008 10:10 pm

      It is pretty incredible that you have a sight like Scripta that gives recommendations on what to do about immigrants that move to this country. In first place, there is an answer: laws in general and the Equality Act (Yhdenvertaisuuslaki), which gives us a rough idea how to handle the matter.
      What “insults” Finnish “culture?” Are you talking generally or specifically about what offends you? The law says that Finland accepts cultural diversity and that these people have a right to practice and maintain their respective cultures. Is this a threat? I don´t think so.

  55. intternetnetsi permalink
    December 7, 2008 2:05 am

    Equality Act.. What it says about beating/killing sister because of “honour”, refusing to use same swimming pool time as locals, refusing to serve alcohol, .. those are parts of some cultures. Read scripta and say what there is wrong or lie?
    From “Maahanmuutto koostuu ihmisistä” “Britanniassa kuolee keskimäärin yksi nainen kuukaudessa kunniaväkivallan uhrina, poliisin tietoon tulee vuosittain 400 pakkoavioliittotapausta ja muslimiyhteisöjen tiedetään suojelevan väkivallantekijöitä. Ruotsissa lentää teinityttöjä parvekkeilta. Suomessa joudutaan piilottelemaan maahanmuuttajatyttöjä perheiltään ja suvuiltaan.”

    • Enrique permalink
      December 7, 2008 7:49 am

      Who condones these acts that you mentinon? In Finlnad we should use our laws and the UN Charter of Human Rights to give us guidance on these matters.

      –From “Maahanmuutto koostuu ihmisistä” “Britanniassa kuolee keskimäärin yksi nainen kuukaudessa kunniaväkivallan uhrina, poliisin tietoon tulee vuosittain 400 pakkoavioliittotapausta ja muslimiyhteisöjen tiedetään suojelevan väkivallantekijöitä. Ruotsissa lentää teinityttöjä parvekkeilta. Suomessa joudutaan piilottelemaan maahanmuuttajatyttöjä perheiltään ja suvuiltaan.”

      I can list many crimes committed by Finns, Brits, Germans, Canadians and the list goes on. Just because someone commits a crime in our society does not mean that we give up being a society and throw our justice system out of the window.

      The comments that I have read in Scripta show me that it is just another site where a person(s) attempts to justify and expand the cause of racism. It is not my daily cup of tea.

  56. Tiwaz permalink
    December 7, 2008 10:34 am

    And if we look at rape statistics, we see that group of people who rank around 2% of total population are responsible for double digit number of rapes.

    Muslims.

    That is clear signal that there is something really wrong in attempt of multiculturalism. When one group can rake up to ten times their statistical “allowance” in crimerate.

    You are asking us to throw away our society by trying to import this multiculturalism here. There is your face of multiculturalism. Rapists raping because they are told that their culture is A-OK in Finland. Even if it goes against practically everything your average Finn believes in.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 7, 2008 11:21 am

      –That is clear signal that there is something really wrong in attempt of multiculturalism. When one group can rake up to ten times their statistical “allowance” in crimerate.

      Crimes such as rape should never be condoned but punished swiftly by due process. But to invalidate multiculturalism because some people from xxxx society rapes more per capita, is rediculous. What about Finnish crime statistics? Did you know that Finns have high homicide rates? Family violence? Seinäjoki? Oulu? Jokela? Should Finnish culture be written off because of these statistics? Of course not! They are social problems that must be treated.

  57. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    December 7, 2008 11:28 am

    “You should try it out…maybe you can learn something and realize that also other cultures have something positive in it.”

    Like what?

    If I want to live in another culture I go somewhere else. If I want to live with Finnish culture I go to Finland. If you do not want to live in Finnish culture, then why come to Finland?

    • Enrique permalink
      December 7, 2008 11:58 am

      DeTant, the world that you are mentioning ceased to exist many hundreds, possibly thousands of years ago. We do not live in clean cultural compartments. People and cultures interact.
      By the way, could you explain what Finnish culture is? Thank you.

  58. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    December 7, 2008 11:30 am

    “What about Finnish crime statistics? Did you know that Finns have high homicide rates? Family violence? Seinäjoki? Oulu? Jokela?”

    And the society comes better when you import *more* problems that we have already eradicated?

  59. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    December 7, 2008 11:33 am

    Multiculturalism in Action again in Greece
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7769710.stm

    • Enrique permalink
      December 7, 2008 11:56 am

      I think some studies show that the worst racism problem in the EU is in Greece.

  60. intternetnetsi permalink
    December 7, 2008 3:39 pm

    -The comments that I have read in Scripta show me that it is just another site where a person(s) attempts to justify and expand the cause of racism. It is not my daily cup of tea.

    He got 2977 votes in election only because of that blog and 66% of hs.fi readers think that he is right. Read news please before you insult finland like you do all time.

    And he doesnt want justify and expand cause of racism, he tries to stop it. Read what he writes. Or is that too hard when you cant say normal “uneducated” “young” “travel” shit?
    Read e.g. http://www.halla-aho.com/scripta/kansainvalisesta_adoptiosta_ja_varisokeudesta.html and tell me where there is racism?

    • Enrique permalink
      December 7, 2008 6:55 pm

      I read the comments that some people put and they are pretty hairy. I read a little on his ideas on multiculturalism and his classifications of who is a “real” Finn and who is from a foreign background. It was enough for me to stop reading.

  61. intternetnetsi permalink
    December 7, 2008 8:41 pm

    So you cant tale other opinions, how nice.

  62. intternetnetsi permalink
    December 7, 2008 8:41 pm

    So you cant take other opinions, how nice.

  63. Calculator Man permalink
    December 8, 2008 4:16 am

    De Tant Blomhat: Of course I feel discriminated here if I read this crap of people like you. I guess you also get a culture shock if you go to a Italian, Chinese or Mexican Restaurant here in Finland?🙂

  64. Tiwaz permalink
    December 8, 2008 5:23 am

    “Crimes such as rape should never be condoned but punished swiftly by due process. But to invalidate multiculturalism because some people from xxxx society rapes more per capita, is rediculous. What about Finnish crime statistics? Did you know that Finns have high homicide rates? Family violence? Seinäjoki? Oulu? Jokela? Should Finnish culture be written off because of these statistics? Of course not! They are social problems that must be treated.”

    No it is not ridiculous. It is reality, their cultural norms state that woman behaving in certain way is slut and deserves to be treated like that.
    They are, in effect, living along their own cultural traditions and habits like YOU suggest they should do.

    And in their culture, raping such women is not such a bad thing. Many of them do not even grasp what all this fuss is about… Over there, in their countries, while such rape is technically a crime… It is not a big thing, over there policemen and judges and all just see it that woman was asking for it. And whole thing is swept away.

    It is fundamental failure of multiculturalism. They still live as if they were in Wahabbistaniland. But this is FINland.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 8, 2008 7:31 am

      –No it is not ridiculous. It is reality, their cultural norms state that woman behaving in certain way is slut and deserves to be treated like that.

      In every society there are criminals who should spend time behind bars. But please do not generalize. There are blunders in other countries’ justice system as there are in Finland. Finnish women have been able to emancipate themselves even though they still make smaller salaries than men. You cannot blame rape on multiculturalism. What about when a Finn does it? Is that the failure of “monoculturalism?”

  65. Kristian permalink
    December 8, 2008 9:51 am

    Here you say “Finns, irrespective of their background”. Now you want to deny Finns the status of an ethnic group? Not very multicultural!

    Only Finns can be Finns, while anyone can be a Finnish citizen.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 8, 2008 10:45 am

      But Finns comprise of many diverse groups. That was my point. Being a Finn does not mean looking like the woman on the Elovena box. That is only an ideal picture of a Finn. Today you will find Finns from very diverse cultural, ethnic and religious background who define themselves as Finns. I think it is a very positive matter that each group has a strong “us” identity. However, this should not exclude others who may want to belong to such a group nor from society as a whole.

  66. Tiwaz permalink
    December 9, 2008 10:30 am

    No, there are no culturally diverse Finns.

    Finn is someone who identifies Finnish culture as his own, native culture.

    You, Enrique, are NOT Finn. You may be Citizen of Finland, but you are not Finn.

    Finns are not many diverse groups, Finns are one group with unified culture.

    Lapps are not Finns, they are Lapps. Gypsies are not Finns, they are Gypsies. You are not Finn Enrique, you are foreigner or immigrant.

    And if you do not want to be part of Finnish society, what the hell are you doing in Finland? Trying to destroy our society to replace it with yours? Want to guess my answer to that?

    • Enrique permalink
      December 9, 2008 10:53 am

      The reason why there are no culturally diverse Finns in your opinion is because you have a very narrow view of who is a Finns.

      –Finn is someone who identifies Finnish culture as his own, native culture.
      You, Enrique, are NOT Finn. You may be Citizen of Finland, but you are not Finn.

      Isn’t this a contradiction? You better rewrite you definition of a Finn.

      –And if you do not want to be part of Finnish society, what the hell are you doing in Finland? Trying to destroy our society to replace it with yours? Want to guess my answer to that?

      There you go again with your alarmist xenophobic views. You should move to the North Pole and set up a “tribe” of people that think like you. Good luck.

  67. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    December 9, 2008 4:52 pm

    “I think some studies show that the worst racism problem in the EU is in Greece.”

    And why would that be do you think? Too many immigrants who cannot adapt to the society. Along with a bad economy and a huge division between the rich and the poor.

    Just heard of a Greek girl moving to Finland with her Finnish bf. The bf had been in Greece for a year trying to find a job – any job. No luck. no speak Greek. So now its her turn to try her luck.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 9, 2008 7:47 pm

      Yes, Greece has a lot of issues to address.

  68. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    December 9, 2008 4:57 pm

    “But Finns comprise of many diverse groups. That was my point. Being a Finn does not mean looking like the woman on the Elovena box. That is only an ideal picture of a Finn. Today you will find Finns from very diverse cultural, ethnic and religious background who define themselves as Finns. I think it is a very positive matter that each group has a strong “us” identity.”

    Yes exactly. And that is why we do not want multiculturalism in Finland. Because then everyone is in their own ghetto being me, me , me. Finland is “us” – if there is multiculturalism then in one ghetto you can beat up your wife and in another throw your daughter off the balcony because she was raped in the third. That is multiculturalism. Finnish culture is when you have “us” and not global coca-cola.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 9, 2008 7:46 pm

      Get this idea that multiculturalism is synonymous with “ghettos” out of your head. It could be a consequence of discrimination and racism as well. Since the majority culture is hostile to these people, they have no choice but to live in “ghettos.”

  69. Tiwaz permalink
    December 10, 2008 6:33 am

    -Get this idea that multiculturalism is synonymous with “ghettos” out of your head. It could be a consequence of discrimination and racism as well. Since the majority culture is hostile to these people, they have no choice but to live in “ghettos.”

    Get this to your head, if attempts to make multiple totally different cultures to live together ends with ghettoes. What does it tell us about multiculturalism?

    THAT IT DOES NOT WORK!

    If B comes from A, it means that A always causes B NOT X. Simple logical deduction. But logic appears to elude you doesn’t it Enrique?

    If those immigrants tried to integrate to society, instead of trying to force natives to integrate to immigrants, perhaps there would be no ghetto. But since they refuse to integrate, who can blame natives for not wanting to have anything to do with such ungrateful trash?

    And Finns are cultural and ethnic group which is not dependant on being Citizen of Finland. You are citizen of Finland Enrique, unfortunately, but you are not cultural or ethnic Finn. Finns are those who follow Finnish culture. And we, cultural and ethnic, Finns are ones who are natives of this country.

    So take your foreign ways and multiculturalism, stuff them in your body inside the part where sun does not shine and either learn to live in Finland like Finns of get out. If you can’t do either, stop whining you racist!

    • Enrique permalink
      December 10, 2008 10:00 am

      –If B comes from A, it means that A always causes B NOT X. Simple logical deduction. But logic appears to elude you doesn’t it Enrique?

      What you do not understand is that culture, a very complex thing, does not work by simple mathematics. When I speak to a person from another culture, there is no guide that gives me the exact answer on how I should interact. You are oversimplifying and generalizing. That leaves a lot of holes in your arguments.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 10, 2008 10:02 am

      –So take your foreign ways and multiculturalism, stuff them in your body inside the part where sun does not shine and either learn to live in Finland like Finns of get out. If you can’t do either, stop whining you racist!

      Wow, now you are showing who you really are. I’ll allow others to judge your words. And, by the way, when, where, and how I move is for me to know and for you to find out. In other words — none of your business.

  70. Tiwaz permalink
    December 10, 2008 11:52 am

    “What you do not understand is that culture, a very complex thing, does not work by simple mathematics. When I speak to a person from another culture, there is no guide that gives me the exact answer on how I should interact. You are oversimplifying and generalizing. That leaves a lot of holes in your arguments.”

    No it doesn’t. Apparently you still do not grasp it. Or to be more precise, you have desire to deny reality.

    Putting multiple cultures in one area has NEVER resulted in wonderful wonderland you try to claim multiculturalism is.

    It has every single time devolved into divided, conflicting and miserable conflict zone. Every single time. Cultures just do not work together without one being dominant one and rest subjects. Attempt to enforce multiple “equal” cultures is always failure.

    Prove me wrong. Show me single, first world multicultural society which does not suffer from race riots, unstable society, divided society, cultural conflicts, overblown crimes or more than one together.

    Go on.

    You can’t.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 10, 2008 12:14 pm

      Did I say that a multicultural society does NOT have problems? Like any other society, it has. Show me a so-called “monocultural” society without social problems and where people just hold hands and sing Kumbaya.

  71. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    December 10, 2008 12:05 pm

    “Get this idea that multiculturalism is synonymous with “ghettos” out of your head. It could be a consequence of discrimination and racism as well.”

    Discrimination and racism are the principle cornerstones of multiculturalism.

  72. Tiwaz permalink
    December 10, 2008 12:12 pm

    -Wow, now you are showing who you really are. I’ll allow others to judge your words. And, by the way, when, where, and how I move is for me to know and for you to find out. In other words — none of your business.

    How about learning that what you try to sell is not wanted. I am just trying to give you friendly, and now since you stubbornly try to deny failure of multiculturalism more directly, advice that what you are peddling is not wanted.

    And I am waiting for your evidence of functional, wonderful and kumbaya-singing multiculturalism instead of that miserable horror which real world sees.

  73. Tiwaz permalink
    December 10, 2008 12:31 pm

    Finland, Japan. Neither experiences the same level of ghetto issues, riots, unrest, crime and all around misery as your multicultural societies.

    Yes, Finland and Japan have problems. But those problems would not go away with multiculturalism, they would still be there and we would have imported loads of NEW problems.

    As I said, what kind of idiot tries to solve problems by adding them?
    If multiculturalism does not fix anything, but increases problems… What is the value of such failure?

  74. Calculator Man permalink
    December 12, 2008 2:30 pm

    My Finnish girlfriend and my Finnish coworkers do not have any problems with me. It is an individual issue…if you can’t get along with foreigners then I respect it. But there are also others who can and you should respect them as well.

    I am leaving this discussion now. Have better things to do and it is waste of time as there will be anyway no outcome.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 12, 2008 2:36 pm

      Good luck, Calculator Man. One thing that one learns in such debates is how others think. This is valuable. It is also an issue that, in my opinion, needs some serious debating and more attention. But you are right: it depends on the individual.
      Many thanks for your comments and I hope you drop by every now and then. Good luck in your endeavors.

  75. Phil J Walton permalink
    March 15, 2011 10:13 am

    Briefly, I have not lived in Finland, but spent many years in Sweden and Denmark. I am an Englishman, but have a natural “perma-tan”, so I was invariably mistaken for a ‘mustelienen’ or whatever it is they say. I encountered more racism (full-blown confrontational racism, not your passive soft-core racism) in one week than all the rest of my life in dozens of other countries combined! They pride themselves on being ‘model liberal societies’ for the rest of the world — but they haven’t even learned the basics of tolerance. Frankly, I feel there is very little that can be learned from them.

    • Enrique permalink
      March 15, 2011 12:41 pm

      Hi Phil, this country almost went unoticed thorughout most of the last century. It had harsh foreign investment laws and the task before was to keep foreigners out of Finland. That what happened to you is from those days. Finland is now becoming more international and many are ashamed by the racist behavior of some.

  76. Laura permalink
    January 29, 2012 9:30 am

    Hi, I am a Latinoamerican living in Finland for nearly 20 years. I personally dont have any racist experiences nad I most say that I have learnt alot from them. I am proud to be who I am, where I come from and where I live. My children here are happy too, and safe.
    Finland is a small country, growing still but doing, or trying to do things right.
    It is funny to see and hear that if you go to a Muslim country (to give an example) you must behave in a certain way to be tolerated. In Finland though, you can see how they have accepted other cultures (whether they wanted or no). Finland may be racist but they don´t show it as others do. You are still safe in here.
    As I said, I have been living in this country along time and tears me apart to see some foreigners coming to this country to take advantage of the system, thats horrible. I am lucky to have among friends foreigners who work hard and accept this country as their step mother, and Finns who have accepted me as I am….in my life and at work.
    Finland has a lot to work out, there are lots of bad and stupid things…but what country is free of that. Finland is ahead of many.

    You must live here and understand this people in all aspects to be able to talk about them.

    • Enrique permalink
      January 29, 2012 9:55 am

      Hola Laura y un gusto de saludarte. Welcome to Migrant Tales. We are always happy to hear success stories of content immigrants in Finland. Good for you!

      –In Finland though, you can see how they have accepted other cultures (whether they wanted or no).

      I disagree with you here. We are not a country that is run by autocrats nor are we a theocracy, we are Finland. We are a Nordic welfare state democracy that is an example to those types of countries you mentioned.

      There are always a few who take advantage of the situation. It’s unfortunate but true.

      We look forward to hearing more about how you adapted so well in Finland.

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