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The Equality Act and Finnish Independence Day

December 6, 2008

What better time than to bring up the Equality Act of 2004 during Finland’s Independence Day. One of the matters that makes me happy about being a member of this society is that after December 6, 1917, Finland did not become an autocratic country that had no respect for human rights. Despite all the challenges this country faced in the previous century, it still had the courage to build a society based on social justice.

One of the most important laws that have been past in recent years in this country is the Equality Act of 2004. You can also get acquainted with the law in other languages such as Swedish, Russian, Spanish and others. In a nutshell, the law states: The Equality Act prohibits discrimination based on age, racial or ethnic origin,citizenship, language, religion or belief, conviction, opinion, state of health, disability, sexual orientation or other personal characteristics (such as financial position, pregnancy, and family situation).

It would be naive to think that one law can correct a social ill such as racism. However, it is a very good and bold first step. It offers hope not only to us, but also to future generations so one day we may build the foundations of a society that is based on good ethnic relations between all groups.

144 Comments leave one →
  1. Tiwaz permalink
    December 7, 2008 10:40 am

    What racism?

    Show me Finn who could get a job without speaking Finnish or acting Finnish and then you might have a case. Except you couldn’t.

    Racism is what you and other immigrants feel towards Finnish culture. Refusing to respect it.

    It is not equality you desire, but preferential treatment for foreigners. In short, racism.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 7, 2008 11:14 am

      Why do you think foreigners DON’T respect Finnish culture and then labelling it as “racism.”
      When there is racism, it must be pointed out.

  2. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    December 7, 2008 10:52 am

    Anyone else might have the decency to be thankful of Finland, but you must make another anti-Finland hate post out of it.

    Thanks for making me feel sorry that we are independent. All that suffering for nothing. You are disgusting, do you know that.

  3. Jonas permalink
    December 7, 2008 2:05 pm

    It’s amazing (not to mention massively ironic) that people are so blinded by nationalism and dogma that they believe any person who points out any failings in a society are being racist.

    As we just pass our 91st independence day, I think it’s a very good time to remember that we have come a long way, but the job is not done. In some areas, in the last few months, things have even taken retrograde steps. Minister Kiviniemi and many of her Centre colleagues seem intent on blowing up a new language conflict. New right-wing elements in the form of Soini’s gang have had unprecedented electoral success. In the face of such things and continued elements of intolerance, can we really say we’ve reached the final destination in the evolution of our land?

    Remember, Finland is a country with the freedom of expression and speech. It’s a shame some people who comment on this blog are perhaps not responsible or mature enough to use that right (which many of their compatriots fought to attain) responsibly.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 7, 2008 6:53 pm

      Hi Jonas, great to hear from you again. I hope things are well for you.
      Yes, it is incredible what the pill of nationalism can do to people and how they are conditioned to see the world in a bipolar fashion: good and bad; multiculturalism and monculturalism; etc. Finland has come a long way. What is even a more impressive thing is that all the setbacks and suffering that this country has endured, some people still believe in noble thing such as freedom of speech and the right to express oneself.

  4. Tiwaz permalink
    December 8, 2008 5:05 am

    Jonas, perhaps this is sign that Finns are growing tired of attempts of oppression from immigrants.

    Immigrants who come here to benefit from our society, built from our backs and backs of our forefathers. But refuse to respect us and our culture. Demanding us to appease them and their foreign ways. Demanding that they should not integrate to our society and culture, but that we Finns must change our ways to fit these immigrants.

    Realitycheck, that will NEVER work. And rise of Soini and his gang are proof of it. More and more people grow annoyed and tired of immigrant racism. Immigrants should wake up, ask themselves how they would wish for Finns to act if tables were turned and then feel SHAMED of themselves. Shamed of their demands for appeasement and shamed for being too arrogant or lazy to accept that they, immigrants, are ones who must work to learn the ways of new country.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 8, 2008 7:17 am

      –Immigrants who come here to benefit from our society, built from our backs and backs of our forefathers. But refuse to respect us and our culture.

      I disagree. Both benefit from living together in the same society.

  5. Calculator Man permalink
    December 8, 2008 1:25 pm

    “Built from our backs and backs of our forefathers”:

    Architect of Helsinki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Ludvig_Engel
    Stockmann

    Founder of Stockmann Department Store: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockmann#History

    Funny people here🙂

    • Enrique permalink
      December 8, 2008 1:38 pm

      I guess we should change “built from our backs and backs of our forefathers” to “built from the backs of our ‘foreign’ forefathers.”
      I think the interesting point here is that the differences that exist between countries are in between our ears. Cultural diversity can also lead to
      many great things like beautiful buildings and neat department stores.

  6. December 8, 2008 1:42 pm

    Typical BS. For example: I live here, pay my taxes and contribute to society. I have hosted for two years running the Finnish Independence Day dinner for my wife’s family at my place, and arranged and cooked a traditional Finnish menu. I speak Finnish fluently and have lived here for many years. I know many people like me. By the way, I’m Mexican and look the part, which has caused me occasional trouble with some idiots, but that doesn’t mean I immediately hate everybody either.

    Don’t come here to generalise about all immigrants, the same way as it shouldn’t be done about Finns. That is the problem with this discussion.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 8, 2008 2:25 pm

      Hola Chiva, un gusto de saludarte. I agree: too much generalization is never good and we should be careful. However, to generalize that non-Finns do not care about the society they live in is pretty insulting. More foreigners make a BIG effort to learn Finnish and become respectable citizens of this society.

  7. Calculator Man permalink
    December 8, 2008 1:46 pm

    Thats the point Enrique! You can observe the same in Biology. There is a big chance that a baby is getting born sick if Father and Mother have similar genes.That’s why it is not allowed by law e.g. that a brother and a sister have a baby together.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 8, 2008 2:33 pm

      Claude LĂ©vy-Strauss believes that one of the reasons why there are rules against incest is to permit the family to expand. You are right that there are some genetic problems if we married our sister or brother. One of the aims of the incest rule could be to expand the family by marrying outside our group. Women play a key role in this because they give birth. In the same way, a culture can broaden its horizon (gives it a better change to survive) when it gets influences from other cultures. It is a two-way street and a very dynamic thing when it works properly.

  8. Calculator Man permalink
    December 8, 2008 1:51 pm

    Chiva:yes exactly, judge the Person not the Nationality.

  9. Tiwaz permalink
    December 9, 2008 6:59 am

    -Typical BS. For example: I live here, pay my taxes and contribute to society. I have hosted for two years running the Finnish Independence Day dinner for my wife’s family at my place, and arranged and cooked a traditional Finnish menu. I speak Finnish fluently and have lived here for many years. I know many people like me. By the way, I’m Mexican and look the part, which has caused me occasional trouble with some idiots, but that doesn’t mean I immediately hate everybody either.

    Don’t come here to generalise about all immigrants, the same way as it shouldn’t be done about Finns. That is the problem with this discussion.

    Then you have integrated. Do you still try to live as if you were in Mexico? Hmm?

    Enrique and Imbecilator here try to suggest that you should not change to live in Finland. That FINLAND should change so you do not have to.

    By the way, who BUILT the Stockmann? Engel wasn’t there doing any actual work.
    Neither did Engel try to impose his alien foreign values to Finland. He did not demand that his culture should take preference over Finnish.

  10. Calculator Man permalink
    December 9, 2008 8:27 am

    Tiwaz: You should learn a bit more about Engel. By planning the city, he wanted to integrate different aspects of other European cities. Just accept it that there is no pure Finnish Culture anymore…Culture is always developing…if you can’t see it then you are blind…sorry!

  11. Tiwaz permalink
    December 9, 2008 8:47 am

    Imbecilator. Finnish culture is not static, but it changes to fit our needs. Not yours.
    Ours being finns, not you immigrants.

    You want us Finns to forget our culture, to replace it with yours because you are either too lazy or stupid to learn to live in Finland the Finnish way.

    And Engel is one man. He is not people.

    Culture is not about buildings. Imbecilator.

    Culture is, as defined in for example merriam webster dictionary:
    “5 a: the integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon the capacity for learning and transmitting knowledge to succeeding generations b: the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group ; also : the characteristic features of everyday existence (as diversions or a way of life} shared by people in a place or time c: the set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes an institution or organization d: the set of values, conventions, or social practices associated with a particular field, activity, or societal characteristic ”

    Thus, Finnish culture are Finnish customary beliefts, values, traditions and behavior.

    Finnish culture is how Finns act, speak, believe and what they value. It is not items or purchases. It is our everyday life.

    Which is why your assault on our culture is all the more disgusting. You are not attacking some cold war era grey boxmodel houses. You are attacking our very identity.

  12. December 9, 2008 8:52 am

    @Tiwaz Actually I do behave quite a bit as I would in Mexico since cultural differences although existent aren’t so big, and I firmly believe that by showing the people around me that there is a different way of doing things I’m contributing to this society.

    Of course there are certain rules you have to follow, but I’m not all of a sudden (or in many years) going to become a stereotypical Finn, even if I tried. It’s not about my way or the highway for anyone unless they break the law, you know?

  13. Tiwaz permalink
    December 9, 2008 9:23 am

    -@Tiwaz Actually I do behave quite a bit as I would in Mexico since cultural differences although existent aren’t so big, and I firmly believe that by showing the people around me that there is a different way of doing things I’m contributing to this society.

    Of course there are certain rules you have to follow, but I’m not all of a sudden (or in many years) going to become a stereotypical Finn, even if I tried. It’s not about my way or the highway for anyone unless they break the law, you know?

    So basically you have learned to not do things which violate Finnish culture and where your cultural habits do not violate Finnish culture you have not changed your behavior? (or have but that is irrelevant since both options are acceptable by Finnish norms)

    Guess what I have been trying to beat to Enriques head?

    Exactly that. If your original cultural norms violate Finnish, your culture loses in Finland. If not…

    • Enrique permalink
      December 9, 2008 10:56 am

      “Violate” Finnish culture. That is a laugh. I am a law-abiding citizen. My records are clean as a whistle.

  14. December 9, 2008 10:23 am

    @Tiwaz It’s not that simple. Things like smiling in a bus without any apparent reason definitely violate Finnish cultural rules, but I keep on doing them. Or offering to help people when I know they’ll anyway refuse. Or finding ways to improvise when processes don’t work. People can learn from us as well, you know? It’s a two way street.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 9, 2008 10:54 am

      I think it is amusing that some people may have a very narrow view of their culture. Rules are there to be tested. All cultures change as people do.
      I raise my hat to Chiva for trying to challenge old rules.

  15. Tiwaz permalink
    December 9, 2008 12:32 pm

    -@Tiwaz It’s not that simple. Things like smiling in a bus without any apparent reason definitely violate Finnish cultural rules, but I keep on doing them. Or offering to help people when I know they’ll anyway refuse. Or finding ways to improvise when processes don’t work. People can learn from us as well, you know? It’s a two way street.

    They just ignore you.

    By the way, you should learn from Finns. If someone needs help, they will ASK for it. Trying to push your help only makes people think they are incapable of taking care of themselves.

    Stop pestering people.

    What you consider worth for Finns to learn, is not necessarily worth anything from Finnish point of view. You fail to understand that your cultural values are not universal.

    You act as if Finnish way is somehow inferior. It is not. It is different.

    And Enrique, no, foreign cultural ways are not inferior as such. But in Finland they must are below Finnish. As Finnish cultural norms are ones that are native, yours are not. And native takes preference.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 9, 2008 1:19 pm

      –By the way, you should learn from Finns. If someone needs help, they will ASK for it. Trying to push your help only makes people think they are incapable of taking care of themselves. Stop pestering people.

      Tiwaz, it must be a turn on for you to speak that way. I don’t think any sane person can think the way you do. Stop teasing us.

      –And Enrique, no, foreign cultural ways are not inferior as such. But in Finland they must are below Finnish. As Finnish cultural norms are ones that are native, yours are not. And native takes preference.

      I know your strategy: you want to bombard us with so many dumb questions that we’ll end up ga-ga. Are you for real?!

  16. December 9, 2008 2:50 pm

    @Tiwaz

    What part of two-way street you don’t understand? I don’t expect them to be inferior or superior, and I’ve learned as much from the people I am in contact with as many have learned from me. Being open to different opinions and ways of thinking is something I hold very dear, even if I don’t agree. That’s exactly why I’m participating in this conversation.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 9, 2008 4:21 pm

      Tiwaz, Chiva poses some good questions. Interaction is a dynamic process where people learn and grow. In a way, cultures function in the same way. Culture is not a frigid object you can place in a time-warp chamber and marvel how little it changes if at all.

  17. Karri permalink
    December 9, 2008 3:37 pm

    Tiwaz, it’s clear that there’s no real discussion to be had with you – you refuse to listen to anybody else’s comments, and block them off by unbelievably naive, accusatory rants that don’t lead this conversation anywhere. I don’t understand why you’re even posting anything here, when there clearly is no point in your comments?

    Tiwaz, if there’s nothing to be learned from other people or culture, then why did you ever study a foreign language, English (the little that you did)? Why did you, assuming that you were brought up Christian, follow this religion, Christianity, that was born in the Middle East, and then developed in different parts of the world? It’s not a Finnish invention, you know, but most people claim that Finnish values come from Christianity. So Finnish values come from the Middle East, right?

    And why do you think that Finnish culture is under such a threat – what makes Finnish culture so vulnerable and weak now that foreign influences would make it collapse, when Finnish culture has in fact always been influenced and developed by foreign values in the past? Your comments make no sense to me and I don’t understand why you keep wasting your and everyone else’s time by posting your rants here. Tiwaz, Enrique and the other people who have posted comments here are clearly holding the Finnish society in great value and say many good things about it – so why do you think that they’re attacking Finland? Aren’t you able to see anything negative about Finland or Finns? What about the school shootings, sexual violence in Finnish families, the alcoholism, etc? Don’t you think that Finland has room to grow and develop? Don’t you think that Finland, too, can be criticized – after all, it’s not a perfect place. And if you really don’t know the history of Finland and foreign investors in Finland better than what comes through in your comments, then I think you need to go back to school.

    I’m a Finn myself, born and raised in Finland, and my ancestors, like many other Finns’ forefathers, were actually a mix of Finnish, Russian, Turkish, Swedish and German people, due to the many wars and moves of migrants that Finland has seen. Finland’s a great country, in many ways a very well built society that has faced many challenges in the past, and Finland will continue to thrive, as long as its people and administration continue to believe in the values of real equality, like Enrique points out.

    Enrique, thank you for the great post. I completely agree with what you say about the Equality Act.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 9, 2008 4:18 pm

      We could say that Finland is a great country because it was made of so many cultures just like other countries. I believe turning it into some “monocultural” desert where everything is so predictable and hygienic is what makes it lose its shine and attraction.

  18. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    December 9, 2008 3:48 pm

    “Remember, Finland is a country with the freedom of expression and speech.”

    Yes exactly Jonas, and it is for us to speak up and tell what we think instead of letting idiots destroy our country because nobody dares to raise a voice against them. Democracy means theres a majority whose voice must be heard – the Finnish politicians have forgotten. And the more you want to suppress “wrong opinions” the more those opinions are going to be raised.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 9, 2008 3:56 pm

      Are you serious, DeTant?? Do you really believe that “idiots are destroying our country?!”

  19. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    December 9, 2008 3:52 pm

    “You can observe the same in Biology. There is a big chance that a baby is getting born sick if Father and Mother have similar genes.That’s why it is not allowed by law e.g. that a brother and a sister have a baby together.”

    But you promote this with your multiculturalism. You want to live in the ghetto with your own kind only.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 9, 2008 3:55 pm

      Come on, DeTant, you are smarter than that comment.

  20. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    December 9, 2008 4:03 pm

    What do you mean, inbreeding? That is multticulturalism at its finest.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/4442010.stm

  21. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    December 9, 2008 4:03 pm

    What do you mean, inbreeding? That is multticulturalism at its finest.
    news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/4442010.stm

  22. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    December 9, 2008 4:09 pm

    * Do you really believe that “idiots are destroying our country?!”

    Well what do you call the current economic situation? manufactured by the beacons of intelligence. Finland has been destroyed economically and now we’re slowly being transferred into a country with huge gaps between the rich and the poor.

    And I wouldn’t call Astrid Thors new proposal as an immigrant act in all parts done with a sane mind. Then again I’d rather see all of Schengen if not EU have an uniform legislation in this aspect with the same basic set of rules for everyone to adhere to. Or even the Nordic area could go forth.

  23. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    December 9, 2008 5:02 pm

    “Culture is not a frigid object you can place in a time-warp chamber and marvel how little it changes if at all.”

    That is what a lot of expats do though, they bottle their memories as to when they left. If they ever return home they get mighty disappointed they find out things have changed.

  24. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    December 9, 2008 5:05 pm

    I think one of Finlands attractive poits *is* that everything is so predictable and hygienic. And that we have law and order and a functioning society. No riots, no religious intolerance, no societal injustices… well not major ones at least. And the best thing is we don’t have multiculturalism and ghettoes, that we are a good place to live where diverse people work for the one nation.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 9, 2008 7:41 pm

      Law and order?! No intolerance? What about intolerance to multiculturalism?! To idiots as you call them?! In an IQ test, an idiot is the person with the least intelligence. So you are also discriminating against people with mental handicaps. Finland has come a long way from the 1950s and 1960s…

  25. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    December 9, 2008 5:16 pm

    “Aren’t you able to see anything negative about Finland or Finns? ”

    Karri, that is not the issue. The issue is theres no problems in Finland whatsoever for any outsider to need to solve. We take care of our own problems. And other people should take care of theirs.

    “Don’t you think that Finland has room to grow and develop?”

    For that we hire a teacher. A teacher usually is someone who knows things better.

    “Don’t you think that Finland, too, can be criticized – after all, it’s not a perfect place.”
    As long as the criticizing is done by someone from a better place. Don’t know many.

    “Finland’s a great country, in many ways a very well built society that has faced many challenges in the past, and Finland will continue to thrive, as long as its people and administration continue to believe in the values of real equality,”

    Exactly, and that is why we need to continue having equality instead of multiculturalism.

  26. Karri permalink
    December 9, 2008 6:03 pm

    DeTantBlomhat (are you the same person as Tiwaz?), it seems like you have some sort of a sense of supremacy being a Finn, and you also denounce the fact that Finland has been largely built by values imported from elsewhere. I can’t agree with you on that. If Finland is as great and self-sufficient as you say, then why would it be so vulnerable and weak when exposed to the outside world?

    Also, I can’t see why you’re so blind to see that your own opinions don’t, in fact, need to be in dispute with what Enrique is saying in his blog. To your point about needing to have “equality instead of multiculturalism”, can’t you see that real equality and working multiculturalism aren’t things that fight against, or refute each other? They are things that go hand in hand.

    Equality, i.e. being equal in front of the law and the society, being equal in the society despite of different looks, different language, or different background, is part of the foundation of working multiculturalism, and working multiculturalism is part of the foundation of original Finland, as laid out by our forefathers, who came from many different tribes and places to this country, which is and has been bilingual (in some parts trilingual) and multicultural (just look at the differences between different historical areas of the country). Finland is a multicultural country, and has been so for a long time. Democracy is multicultural – countries that are ruled by just one party, one ideology, one culture, and one value, are usually known as dictatorships.

    So here’s what I say to you: if you don’t believe in equality, the rule of current Finnish law and the right to be different in this country, then you don’t believe in Finland.

  27. Tiwaz permalink
    December 10, 2008 7:00 am

    “Tiwaz, it’s clear that there’s no real discussion to be had with you – you refuse to listen to anybody else’s comments, and block them off by unbelievably naive, accusatory rants that don’t lead this conversation anywhere. I don’t understand why you’re even posting anything here, when there clearly is no point in your comments?”

    I have, with examples from real world, proven to Enrique that multiculturalism does not work. Everywhere where it is attempted, country is either developing one, has high racial crime, high instability or other internal conflicts.

    Finland, without multiculturalism, has NONE of these. How about Enrique PROVING that multiculturalism can work in real world. He is one refusing to listen sense.

    I am trying to beat concept of reality into your thick multicultural heads.

    “Tiwaz, if there’s nothing to be learned from other people or culture, then why did you ever study a foreign language, English (the little that you did)? Why did you, assuming that you were brought up Christian, follow this religion, Christianity, that was born in the Middle East, and then developed in different parts of the world? It’s not a Finnish invention, you know, but most people claim that Finnish values come from Christianity. So Finnish values come from the Middle East, right?”

    Did I say that? I never said there is nothing we cannot learn. But issue here is that FINNS decide what is worthy addition, and how it is added to our culture. Not Enrique and rest of immigrants who just want to copypaste their own culture over Finnish one and call it progress.

    THEY are ones who have this supremacy stupidity,

    CHIVA for example believes his own culture so supreme and Finns so stupid that he, the great enlightened immigrant, must come to us to try to teach us superior values of his culture. Because we clearly are too stupid to know how to smile.

    Perhaps it has not occurred to his little mind that Finns do not overall put that much value on smiling if there is no reason to. His little fake smiles are dishonesty which culturally has been considered bad in Finnish society.

    No, he comes to Finland like great colonial lord to educate the barbarians. Like Enrique. Who thinks we Finns cannot travel abroad and learn how things work abroad and comes to spew lies of wonderfulness of multiculturalism. When anyone can look at places where cultures try to “live together” and see nothing but misery brought by it.

    “And why do you think that Finnish culture is under such a threat – what makes Finnish culture so vulnerable and weak now that foreign influences would make it collapse, when Finnish culture has in fact always been influenced and developed by foreign values in the past? Your comments make no sense to me and I don’t understand why you keep wasting your and everyone else’s time by posting your rants here. Tiwaz, Enrique and the other people who have posted comments here are clearly holding the Finnish society in great value and say many good things about it – so why do you think that they’re attacking Finland? Aren’t you able to see anything negative about Finland or Finns? What about the school shootings, sexual violence in Finnish families, the alcoholism, etc? Don’t you think that Finland has room to grow and develop? Don’t you think that Finland, too, can be criticized – after all, it’s not a perfect place. And if you really don’t know the history of Finland and foreign investors in Finland better than what comes through in your comments, then I think you need to go back to school.”

    They do not hold Finnish society in great value, else they would not suggest trying to destroy it through demanding Finns to give up their ways and pick up those Enrique and immigrants find “better”. They never stop thinking if their “better” is considered “inferior” by Finns.

    DT has pointed to you that those who try to criticize Finnish culture better come from one where there are no same problems. Oh yes, every society has those problems. But multicultural societies have all those problems and MORE. Only idiot thinks that problems are solved by increasing their amount.

    Finnish culture is not weak, or dying. But that is not because others like Enrique do not try to undermine it. If Finnish culture is left at mercy of these multiculturalists, it will become weak and it will die. I do not want to see that take place.

    As for rest of your crap. Foreign investment, welcome. Multiculturalism or trying to force foreign culture on Finland. F*** off.

    “I’m a Finn myself, born and raised in Finland, and my ancestors, like many other Finns’ forefathers, were actually a mix of Finnish, Russian, Turkish, Swedish and German people, due to the many wars and moves of migrants that Finland has seen. Finland’s a great country, in many ways a very well built society that has faced many challenges in the past, and Finland will continue to thrive, as long as its people and administration continue to believe in the values of real equality, like Enrique points out.”

    Have you ever bothered to do genetic test? Tests prove that Finns are far distanced from Swedes and Germans. And have nothing to do with turks.

    Real equality is that everyone follows same rules. Also cultural rules. If you had bothered to actually pay attention to BS Enrique spews, you would notice that he does not want equality. He wants preferential treatment to immigrants.

    Immigrants do not get work because they do not speak or behave Finnish. Well, neither will Finn if they do not speak or behave Finnish! But Enrique wants immigrants to have preferential position, that their inability to communicate with natives with native language should not be obstacle! That FINNS, the natives, have to adjust to immigrants instead of immigrants adjusting to native society.

    That, to educate you, is inequality.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 10, 2008 9:56 am

      –I have, with examples from real world, proven to Enrique that multiculturalism does not work. Everywhere where it is attempted, country is either developing one, has high racial crime, high instability or other internal conflicts.

      Your examples are from your own narrow world. Much of my success in life I thank my multicultural background (if you want to put a label on it). One of the most important things you must do if you want to travel in other cultures is to throw away those walls, fear and stereotypes that obfuscate your view of others. As I have told you, I can can enjoy fully the folklore of a coffee shop in Savonranta at 5pm on Saturday and a cup of tea at the London Dorchester Hotel. They are two exciting experiences because they are diverse. That, I think, is how multiculturalism should work. We should be able to travel in cultures and relish such moments.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 10, 2008 9:58 am

      –That FINNS, the natives, have to adjust to immigrants instead of immigrants adjusting to native society.

      Do you ever read Finnish law? I posted something on the Equality Act. You should read it and stop trying to discriminate by stating that since you are a “native” (born in Finland) you somehow know more than others about this country and invalidate what others think.

  28. December 10, 2008 8:49 am

    @Tiwaz Misconstruing the statements of others won’t take you anywhere. Flame on.

    In the meantime, I’ll keep on having a fruitful dialogue with the people around me.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 10, 2008 10:11 am

      I think that is the right attitude, Chiva. In a more extreme example like succumbing to terrorism and violence, we should never be intimidated, especially when it involves our values and sense of justice.

  29. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    December 10, 2008 11:37 am

    “it seems like you have some sort of a sense of supremacy being a Finn”

    And you have some sense of inferiority of being a Finn. you should not, karri. You should be proud.

    ” If Finland is as great and self-sufficient as you say, then why would it be so vulnerable and weak when exposed to the outside world?”

    It is great if we believe it is.

    ” To your point about needing to have “equality instead of multiculturalism”, can’t you see that real equality and working multiculturalism aren’t things that fight against, or refute each other? They are things that go hand in hand.”

    No, multiculturalism means that there are many separate cultures with many separate sets of values. You cannot have many separate sets of values conflicting, you must have one unified set of values all the diverse origin people agree to and when they play with the same rules then the society is wholesome.

    “Equality, i.e. being equal in front of the law and the society, being equal in the society despite of different looks, different language, or different background, is part of the foundation of working multiculturalism”,

    That is not multiculturalism. multiculturalism is ghettoes, discrimination, women without rights, abuse of workers, double standards, religious intolerance and racism.

    “So here’s what I say to you: if you don’t believe in equality, the rule of current Finnish law and the right to be different in this country, then you don’t believe in Finland.”

    I believe in Finland, universal suffrage, democracy and equality – it is multiculturalism I don’t believe in.

  30. Tiwaz permalink
    December 10, 2008 11:43 am

    -Do you ever read Finnish law? I posted something on the Equality Act. You should read it and stop trying to discriminate by stating that since you are a “native” (born in Finland) you somehow know more than others about this country and invalidate what others think.

    Have you?

    I as native do know more than you do about this country. I was born in it. Finland is based on Finnish culture, and guess what… Native Finns are ones who are carrying that culture.

    You, foreigner, have nothing to do with Finnish culture. Finnish society is built on Finnish culture. Thus native Finns are ones who say how things work, because our culture defines playing rules of our society. Society to which you have come.

    -That, I think, is how multiculturalism should work. We should be able to travel in cultures and relish such moments.

    Now, i****, read this slowly and carefully and try to understand what I am trying to tell you.

    It doesn’t matter single f***** iota how you think multiculturalism should work. In real world, it does not work like that. Your illusions on multiculturalism does not change fact that in real world, one which determines how things are in practicality, multiculturalism fails every time.

    You have to separate your dream of multiculturalism and learn to see REAL multiculturalism. And how it is nothing like your pretty little dream. Your dream is not real. It is a dream, just like one I had about having sex with 6 gorgeous women at once.

    Learn to differentiate fantasy from reality. Your working multiculturalism is fantasy.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 10, 2008 12:23 pm

      –I as native do know more than you do about this country. I was born in it. Finland is based on Finnish culture, and guess what… Native Finns are ones who are carrying that culture.

      You have not read the Equality Act. And stop insulting me with words. Can’t you bring forth your ideas any other way?

  31. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    December 10, 2008 11:51 am

    “You should read it and stop trying to discriminate by stating that since you are a “native” (born in Finland) you somehow know more than others about this country and invalidate what others think.”

    Do you make any sense? Do you claim someone just out from car school knows more of driving than someone driven as a profession for 40 years? Of course a native born in a country knows things better of their own country than some random stranger. Do I profess to know anything about Argentina better than you? Of course as a native of Argentina your knowledge of Argentina is superior to mine just as my knowledge of Finland and the Finns is superior to yours.

    So you are saying if there is a test in calculus theres two students, one student has never learned maths and the other is into advanced level. So you want someone to tutor you in calculus – which student do you ask for opinion? Are you saying the students are equal? I think the problem is lacking the knowlege, so the student never studied maths is not to be asked to tutor calculus and that is not discrimination. And the student never studied maths but claiming discrimination and that his knowlege – which is nonexistant – entitles to tutor calculus – that is a stupid student.

    We know things better than you and that is a proven fact.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 10, 2008 12:20 pm

      –Do you make any sense? Do you claim someone just out from car school knows more of driving than someone driven as a profession for 40 years? Of course a native born in a country knows things better of their own country than some random stranger. Do I profess to know anything about Argentina better than you? Of course as a native of Argentina your knowledge of Argentina is superior to mine just as my knowledge of Finland and the Finns is superior to yours.

      That “non-native” could be a person who has lived many years and studied Finnish culture. Just because he comes from another culture does not mean that he does not know anything or that one invalidates his opinions “because he is not a native.” That is what I meant. You only know some things better if you have studied them.

      What surprises me about you is that you appear studied but then your narrow and alarmist views on cultural diversity appear from some dark murky place.

  32. Tiwaz permalink
    December 10, 2008 12:29 pm

    -You have not read the Equality Act. And stop insulting me with words. Can’t you bring forth your ideas any other way?

    Yes I have. Can you prove that you have been discriminated? Can you prove that you and all pathetic losers who scream racism have been treated any differently than Finn who would have your handicaps? (no recognized education, no language skills, no cultural skills etc)

    No. You were not discriminated. You simply lack basic skills required. Skills we Finns obtain in youth.

    Do you losers take this as motivation to learn to speak Finnish and learn how to act finnish? No. You scream racism and demand preferential tratement.

    I insult you because you deserve to be insulted. You are so stuck up with your foreign excellence that you do not see how hollow your arguments are.

    You speak of how wonderful multiculturalism is. While failing to show any example where it would have actually worked.
    You speak of Finnish racism, while it is you who are racist by demanding preferential treatment for foreigners.
    You speak of respect, but do not show any respect to native culture of country where you have been permitted to move. Instead you tell how our culture should be changed so it would be better in your opinion.

    With that last one, specially last one, you insult me. So I insult you back.

  33. Calculator Man permalink
    December 10, 2008 1:41 pm

    Seems somebody is angry here🙂

    Why do you call us losers? I guess we are the ones who learn something new here…so we are not losing anything. However, you might miss the chance to learn something new because you are so closed minded…so you are actually losing something🙂

  34. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    December 10, 2008 5:41 pm

    “That “non-native” could be a person who has lived many years and studied Finnish culture. ”

    Could be, but is not.

    “Just because he comes from another culture does not mean that he does not know anything or that one invalidates his opinions “because he is not a native.” That is what I meant.”

    Lets say when the person has studied enough and can discuss the facts that are common knowlege so that he does not need to be explained common things people learn in school – then he can have valid opinions. Before then he chances his opinions are invalidated every time he makes a simple mistake. Thats what I mean.

    “You have not read the Equality Act.”

    After reading is important reading comprehension, and how to interprete the law.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 10, 2008 7:19 pm

      There is no interpretation. It is as plain as day. I think you have a hard time digesting it.

  35. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    December 10, 2008 5:43 pm

    “Why do you call us losers?”

    Screaming racism is like the Hitler-card. You lose the argument.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 10, 2008 7:18 pm

      What is the Hitler card? Don’t tell me that you are another one that justifies what Hitler did by not condemning his regime.

  36. intternetnetsi permalink
    December 11, 2008 1:26 am

    -There is no interpretation. It is as plain as day. I think you have a hard time digesting it.

    Seems you have hard time with it, equal means equal. Not that multicultural shit that you have more rights because of your language or colour.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 11, 2008 8:53 am

      –Seems you have hard time with it, equal means equal. Not that multicultural shit that you have more rights because of your language or colour.

      I don’t think that is what multicultural means. It is all about equal rights and respecting each other. That is the ideal. And it is a two-way street. There are all types of Finns as there are all types of foreigners. Some are very racist, suspicious and find it difficult to adapt to change.

  37. Tiwaz permalink
    December 11, 2008 5:14 am

    -What is the Hitler card? Don’t tell me that you are another one that justifies what Hitler did by not condemning his regime.

    Hitler card is that you scream racism or nazi and pretend that it clears the issue. Which is what you and rest of your kind do all the time.

    You avoid facing issues by calling people on opposing side racists or nazis, you for example do it by making pathetic hints to some white power sites. Where you appear to spend more time than I.

    You pretend that by trying to label your opponent as racist or nazi you by default invalidate their position/comment/argument.

    It is loser strategy, because it shows that you cannot argue the actual argument.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 11, 2008 8:42 am

      I kind of suspected what the Hitler card meant. I wanted you to explain it to me.

      You should read the Nuremberg Trials and history of what happened in Nazi Germany. As I told you before, you do not condemn what Nazi Germany did. That is why the Continuation War (1941-44) is still a sort of mystery for you historically. When there is racism it must be pointed out, just like an aberration such as Nazism. I think many young people are intrigued by what Hitler did. They justify what happened at Nuremberg Trials as “Victors’ justice.” They invalidate in this way all the atrocities committed by Nazis. Moreover, you invalidate and brush aside a serious social ill such as racism by stating that people that do so only “whine.” It is not a “loser strategy.” It shows the ignorance of the other person.

  38. Tiwaz permalink
    December 11, 2008 8:52 am

    How do you know what I condemn or not? I condemn it, idiot. But I also see that jews partially brought it upon themselves by trying to remain separate from German people.

    THEY created divide which was then used to turn Germans against them by one lunatic.

    Continuation war is not mystery, it was continuation of Winter war. Aggression of foreigners against Finland.

    And I have said repeatedly that there is racism, but YOU LOSERS SCREAM RACISM EVERY FUCKING TIME SOMETHING DOES NOT GO LIKE YOU WANT!

    Foreigner who has no proper papers, no language skills and no cultural skills does not get a job. Stop the press! This is racism!

    It does not get into your loser head that this guy was asking to be turned down. He did not bother getting his credentials transferred to versions understandable/acceptable by Finns. He did not put effort at integrating and showing to potential employer that he is in this for real.

    He just expected to get something he did not have qualifications to have. And when failed, naturally, he screamed racism. And rest of you losers joined the choir because you appear to be either too lazy, too stupid or too arrogant to accept that YOU have to learn to do things the way Finns want them done.

    Racism is definition of you losers for any failure you meet in life in Finland. It is never your fault, it is always Finns being racists. Hell, if foreigner who can’t put 1+1 together does not get job as physics teacher in University it is racism in your opinion.

    Get this to your heads losers, you are trying to sell yourself as employee to employer. Employer chooses what he wants to buy. So you must make yourself fit the desires of employer, not expect employer to change their wants to fit you.

    And not scream racism when you fail to do it and fail to get something.
    Same is true for EVERYTHING in Finland. Stuff does not work like it did at home, you have to learn how things work here to get things done, whoop de f**** do. What else should be told to you i***** about moving to new country?

    Losers.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 11, 2008 9:34 am

      –How do you know what I condemn or not? I condemn it, idiot. But I also see that jews partially brought it upon themselves by trying to remain separate from German people.

      I guess it has not dawned on you that the Jews ARE/WERE/HAVE BEEN Germans. It is a bit like if some insane regime took power in Finland and started to persecute, murder and kick out the Saami, Roma and anyone who did not fit the Elovena image of a Finn. The flaw in your argument is that the Jews did not have the right to be part of German society and that Hitler exaggerated this to fit his political agenda.

      –Continuation war is not mystery, it was continuation of Winter war. Aggression of foreigners against Finland.

      I don’t think that history books in Finland call the Russian invasion of Finland an “invasion by foreigners.” It is a war waged by a tyrant who ruled Russia, or the former Soviet Union.

      –And not scream racism when you fail to do it and fail to get something.
      Same is true for EVERYTHING in Finland. Stuff does not work like it did at home, you have to learn how things work here to get things done, whoop de fucking do. What else should be told to you idiots about moving to new country? Losers.

      Take a good look at this statement. If you were a manger of a company, how do you inspire your employees to work? If you force people to work and do not care for them we call that slave-driver in English. It does not conducive to dialog nor to building strong human relations. People who HAVE seen war, suffered poverty and human rights abuses would probably not use the same words as you. Why? Because life has humbled them. They have seen the dark side of humankind straight in the eyes.

  39. Tiwaz permalink
    December 11, 2008 9:03 am

    -I don’t think that is what multicultural means. It is all about equal rights and respecting each other. That is the ideal. And it is a two-way street. There are all types of Finns as there are all types of foreigners. Some are very racist, suspicious and find it difficult to adapt to change.

    No, we have problems you demanding that we change while you stay the same. We are at home, this is our home. We were born here. We have every right to tell you to adapt to OUR society, since you were permitted here.

    If you can’t, you are free to leave. And I encourage you to leave, because you staying here without learning to live in this society according to it’s rules will only hurt both Finns and immigrants who want to integrate to society, because your arrogance will give them bad name as well.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 11, 2008 9:23 am

      –If you can’t, you are free to leave. And I encourage you to leave, because you staying here without learning to live in this society according to it’s rules will only hurt both Finns and immigrants who want to integrate to society, because your arrogance will give them bad name as well.

      I’ll let the bloggers to weigh your words. But thank you for not kicking me out of Finland directly. Now you say I am “free to leave” and “encourage you to leave.”
      What’s with the nice-guy tactics?

  40. Tiwaz permalink
    December 11, 2008 9:32 am

    -“I’ll let the bloggers to weigh your words. But thank you for not kicking me out of Finland directly. Now you say I am “free to leave” and “encourage you to leave.”
    What’s with the nice-guy tactics?”

    F****** is shorter form. I do not have any nice-guy tactics. I was simply in less rush.

    I never could kick you out of Finland, sadly since I think that this place could benefit from great deal of removed unintegrating immigrants, so I have always encouraged you to leave.

    I have this faint hope that you see what arrogant bastard you are being, demanding things from natives and trying to tell us how to live in our country. That you would see it, repent and start integrating to society around you and abandon your delusions of multiculturalism.

  41. Tiwaz permalink
    December 11, 2008 9:44 am

    -“I guess it has not dawned on you that the Jews ARE/WERE/HAVE BEEN Germans. It is a bit like if some insane regime took power in Finland and started to persecute, murder and kick out the Saami, Roma and anyone who did not fit the Elovena image of a Finn. The flaw in your argument is that the Jews did not have the right to be part of German society and that Hitler exaggerated this to fit his political agenda.”

    No, i****. They were Jews with citizenship of Germany. They never tried to integrate into German society. They formed their own society.

    Because of this, they became prime target. I have no flaw in my argument, it is division created by Jewish population separating themselves into different society which doomed them.

    Without this division, there would have been no way to turn Germans against them.
    But I guess this is too logical for you to comprehend.

    -“I don’t think that history books in Finland call the Russian invasion of Finland an “invasion by foreigners.” It is a war waged by a tyrant who ruled Russia, or the former Soviet Union.”

    So Stalin rushed over the border personally? Those hundreds of thousands of Russians, who are by Finnish definition foreigners, were actually illusion?

    I****.

    -“Take a good look at this statement. If you were a manger of a company, how do you inspire your employees to work? If you force people to work and do not care for them we call that slave-driver in English. It does not conducive to dialog nor to building strong human relations. People who HAVE seen war, suffered poverty and human rights abuses would probably not use the same words as you. Why? Because life has humbled them. They have seen the dark side of humankind straight in the eyes.”

    I would not hire person I would consider unfit to do things in way which most benefits the company. It is called common sense. If foreign i**** cannot speak to client in language client prefers, or act in way which client considers comfortable… Because that would not lead to increased sales and reduced client happiness. It is CLIENT who pays money to my company, not foreign worker. So wants of client must be catered to best ability from first minute they enter the store.

    I have no use for such imbecile in simple terms. I do not want to babysit that i**** to learn to speak Finnish and act properly at cost of company money. And that person is imbecile if they do not after few refusals grasp that they have to change to be employable. And it does not just end there! Every worker has to be taught their duties. Finns too, that comes with territory. But Finns do not need to be taught how to speak and behave.

    You want to give shelter jobs to Foreigners? Start your own company and hire them. Just do not come whining when it fails.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 11, 2008 11:27 am

      What is important is that the Jews considered themselves Germans. Integrate?! You have to be kidding! How could the Jews integrated into a mad regime that was DISINTEGRATING them little by little from German society? You live in a fantasy world that is time warped in the 1970s and 1980s. You never saw suffering of other people but talk big and manly about how black-and-white life is. You sound like a very spoiled arrogant kid.

  42. Tiwaz permalink
    December 11, 2008 11:49 am

    They considered, but they WEREN’T.

    You imbecile pretend that whole issue started with Hitler, it did not. Jews had lived in Europe for generations, always tending to create their own society. So that they were identified themselves first and foremost german JEWS, instead of just germans. And made it clear to everyone else.

    If they had from beginning integrated into society, there would not have been division which Hitler used. Because instead of german and jewish society there would only have been german society. One where jews which part of, through integration to German culture, society and tradition. They would have had to drop some of jewish cultural traditions, but compared to what holocaust brought… They would have had much better position.

    Stop being idiot here. Try to use brains. I know you should have at least one or two braincells in your arrogant, racist head.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 11, 2008 12:05 pm

      –They considered, but they WEREN’T.

      Says who?! Your arguments revolve around native-not native.

      Here is some math for you: 6 million Jews were murdered by the Nazis. In 1933, a total of nine million Jews lived in 21 countries of Europe that would be occupied by Hitler. By 1945 two out of every three European Jews had been killed. This includes 1.5 million children. This figure includes more than 1.2 million Jewish children, tens of thousands of Gypsy children and thousands of handicapped children.

  43. Tiwaz permalink
    December 11, 2008 11:54 am

    What took place in Germany during WW2 was crime, but as I have tried to beat into your thick, ignorant skull… It was something that was totally unavoidable for jewish population.

    It would have required that they would have started integration to German society far before 1930s, more likely already before beginning of 20th century, but they could have integrated into society so well that they could not be targeted.

    They did not assume holocaust could happen, most likely nobody did. But if they had integrated, then holocaust could not have taken place. It would have lacked dividing line which Hitler used to pile blame on jews and turn Germans against jews.

    Same is problem of your multiculturalism, it is idealism of division. Which means that every country which has multiculturalism, has potential to be next Nazi Germany. All it takes are some hard times, charismatic leader and minority which segregates itself from rest of society.

  44. Tiwaz permalink
    December 11, 2008 12:18 pm

    -Here is some math for you: 6 million Jews were murdered by the Nazis. In 1933, a total of nine million Jews lived in 21 countries of Europe that would be occupied by Hitler. By 1945 two out of every three European Jews had been killed. This includes 1.5 million children. This figure includes more than 1.2 million Jewish children, tens of thousands of Gypsy children and thousands of handicapped children.

    Read and try to understand what you read imbecile.

    If jewish populations had integrated to native populations, giving up some of their culture where it was in conflict with native culture, they would have stopped being society inside society. No division.

    You imbecile cannot grasp it, every single conflict, war and so forth requires dividing line in population to work. No division, no conflict.

    And yes, my argument does revolve around native and not-native. Germans were natives of their country, their culture and society were BORN there. Jews were not native, their culture was born in Middle East, they simply had been displaced from there and spread elsewhere.

    Instead of integrating to societies where they moved, they tried to stick to their old culture as tightly as possible. Creating society inside society. Segregating themselves from native culture and natives (followers of that culture).

    If jews were just like everyone else, how they could be singled out? They couldn’t. So they were separated, segregated, divided. Am I finally getting through into your thick skull?

    • Enrique permalink
      December 11, 2008 12:27 pm

      You will get a reply soon from an authority on the subject.

  45. Tiwaz permalink
    December 11, 2008 12:41 pm

    I am shaking.

    Perhaps your authority could first answer this question…

    Were jews, or were they not, integrated into native societies where they lived? Or did they live in separate societies?

    • Enrique permalink
      December 11, 2008 3:37 pm

      That is not the question. The question is: If I am not like you should you embark on a rampage and murder 6 million people in concentration camps. That is the question. Anything else is secondary.

  46. Tiwaz permalink
    December 11, 2008 12:48 pm

    Or perhaps your authority will say that jewish culture was born in Germany?

    Those are all facts.

    1) Jews lived in segregated societies. Partly from own volition, partly due to local pressure.
    2) Jewish culture is native to area in Middle East, nowhere else.

    To save time for your “authority”.
    Was holocaust real? Absolutely.
    Was it a crime? Absolutely.
    Was it unavoidable? Not actually.
    Did it depend on division in German society? Absolutely.
    Was this division one caused by segregation of native Germans (those whose identity is built around german culture) and jews/gypsies (those whose identity is built around jewish/gypsy culture)? Absolutely.

    If this division did not exist, would there have been holocaust? Not in the form we know. Hitler would have lacked ability to have clear, separate target for his policy inside German borders. He would have been forced to “settle” to gay people. Who were too few and difficult to spot to make useful scapegoat.

  47. Calculator Man permalink
    December 11, 2008 1:36 pm

    It is always easy to target a minority group if you have own problems🙂

  48. Calculator Man permalink
    December 11, 2008 6:51 pm

    But again, why are there 1.400.000 Finns who moved abroad and only 160.000 Immigrants in Finland.

    Multicultural Society seems to work otherwise those 1.400.000 would have come back to Finland, or not?

    I mean 1.400.000 is 1/4 of the whole Finnish population….are they betrayers of the Finnish values?

  49. Tiwaz permalink
    December 12, 2008 4:54 am

    -That is not the question. The question is: If I am not like you should you embark on a rampage and murder 6 million people in concentration camps. That is the question. Anything else is secondary.

    No, your question is irrelevant. Reality is that it took place (waiting for your authority to come debunk my facts, guess your authority told you that everything I said was 100% true). And it could have been avoided.

    I*******, 150 years and 1,4 million people. Ever thought that there has lived more than 10 million Finns (careful estimate) during that time.

    You try to fake numbers I*******. You i***** took total amount of Finns who have left, and current number of immigrants.

    Should anyone want to guess why your idiotic comparison is totally useless?

    • Enrique permalink
      December 12, 2008 6:04 am

      When I get the answer I will post it. In the meantime, do you think we are having a fruitful discussion? Are you leaning anything? I am learning how some people think about others and how difficult it is to accept diversity.

  50. Calculator Man permalink
    December 12, 2008 8:59 am

    I think it is a good example…I guess that 1.400.000 Finns who moved abroad also got Babies…so the world actually got invaded by Finns! You should be happy about those few volunteer foreigners who come here🙂

    Tiwaz, relax a bit…otherwise you will get a heart attack🙂

  51. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    December 12, 2008 5:26 pm

    Hitler-card from “Urban Dictionary”

    A common last ditch effort in a heated political debate to steer the argument back in one’s favor by declaring your opponent’s position to be that of Adolf Hitler.

    Often times this is done with little thought as to whether or not adolf hitler was for or against a particular side. Who cares about logic it’s just fun to insult your opponents by likening them or their beliefs to tyrannical despots.

    If you wish to play the Hitler Card and not look like a total tool here’s some examples of Adolf Hitler’s stances or at least what he claimed publicly.

    He was For: abortion, capital punishment, censorship, eugenics, gun control, racial purity, and vegetarianism.

    He was against: atheism, capitalism, communism, democracy, drinking, the disabled, feminists, Jews, Jehovah’s witnesses, Gypsies, homosexuals, labor unions, pornography, prostitution, psychoanalysis, and smoking.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 12, 2008 9:05 pm

      Well, you know, Hitler was not the most benign person in the last century and he did commit many atrocious crimes. There is no need underestimating that by telling a person who is rightfully criticizing such a regime that he is using such a card. It is a debate method used to lower the impact or crimes of a true criminal. When there is racism it must be called as such. When there are outlandish regimes such as Nazi Germany we must call them for what they are.

  52. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    December 12, 2008 5:36 pm

    You two – both Enrique and Tizwas are both *wrong* about the Jews and Germany.

    I call you both uneducated. Please go read through say the ushmm.org or even wikipedia. You are quite in “hollywood history” the both of you and I am really going to call you both imbeciles. And you can go and ask Vera Izrailit (of russian jewish origin) living in Finland about this “multiculturalism” bit as well.

    But please guys, you both are just like two Zeppelins with hydrogen doing fireworks.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 12, 2008 9:02 pm

      You are really funny. The zeppelin was too much. However, WW2 is one of my pet subjects. I like to read about it because we can learn so much from it. A good way to understand what happened is to start from backwards: the Nuremberg trials, for example.

  53. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    December 12, 2008 5:39 pm

    “how difficult it is to accept diversity.”

    How difficult it is to accept you are wrong? Thats the thing in Internet debates.

  54. intternetnetsi permalink
    December 12, 2008 10:43 pm

    So racism.. You call Halla-aho racists without proving anything what he said as wrong. Could that be because you dont approve what he is saying. Its easy to call someone racist or something else, dont attack to messenger attack to message instead or cant you?

    • Enrique permalink
      December 12, 2008 11:17 pm

      I read one thing on multiculturalism and it isn’t my cup of tea. Like some Finns, he is obsessed by people’s backgrounds. Is it so important because he is insecure about where he is from? Or is it because they are obsessed about erecting walls around themselves? One challenging way of seeing people is past their cultural backgrounds and go to the core: what is their inner personality and character? Let me judge the person because of these qualities and not place walls, labels and erect stereotypes to feed my prejudices that give me identity and a false sense of security.

  55. intternetnetsi permalink
    December 12, 2008 11:54 pm

    So youre saying that culture doesnt affect at all? Where is your multiculturalism then?
    Culture affects on all what we do and its important to see that some cultures doesnt fit in here.
    Read, understand and prove wrong. If you cant then youre wrong.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 13, 2008 12:04 am

      There is a big difference with being obsessed from where others are and pinning your relationship on this. Of course culture plays a role. However, not in the way you think. How do you know which cultures do not fit here? Do you have scientific empirical data? I guess not.

  56. intternetnetsi permalink
    December 13, 2008 12:14 am

    I do, look police data in finland, sweden, norway, denmark, uk etc.
    Look news about demands in same countries, read.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 13, 2008 9:17 am

      Which group are you talking about and could you tell me the studies so others could acquaint themselves with them?

  57. Calculator Man permalink
    December 13, 2008 9:28 am

    Maybe foreigners have to become drunken to fit in here. If I would have to deal with people like Tiwaz and intternetnetsi the whole day I would maybe also become a criminal🙂

  58. intternetnetsi permalink
    December 13, 2008 5:50 pm

    -Which group are you talking about and could you tell me the studies so others could acquaint themselves with them?

    http://www.halla-aho.com/scripta/index.html linkit.

    And you know what group im talking for.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 13, 2008 11:12 pm

      You have only given me the link of a guy who has a pretty extreme view of outsiders. This guy is a joke and I am surprised that you even take his “thoughts” seriously. Take some of his writings and read them 5 years from now and you will find out how ridiculous they are.
      But where are the scientific studies from universities and the government that state that certain immigrants would never adapt in Finland?

  59. intternetnetsi permalink
    December 13, 2008 11:54 pm

    So you think finnish and english goverments are joke? read the links. Hint om is oikeusministeriö (ministry of justice), mol is ministry of labour, gov is goverment…

    And that guys thoughts, if you disagree then prove that hes wrong. Pick a text and prove it wrong.

    Then for that never adapt i dont need scientific study, i just look germany and others with many generations of immigrants of certain parts of world.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 14, 2008 12:10 am

      I don’t have to prove anything. He is just a person with very narrow views. Not my cup of ideological tea. I guess they are now going to close his blog because of the things he has been writing on multiculturalism. Some of the comments on his blog are pretty sad.
      One of the things I consider cowardice is when a person uses arguments/bravado to kick people in a weaker social situation in the guts such as immigrants, Muslims, Somalis and others who are struggling in this society. Only a weakling/demagogue would do that.

  60. intternetnetsi permalink
    December 14, 2008 12:49 am

    -I don’t have to prove anything. He is just a person with very narrow views.

    So are you, you are preaching for multiculturalism and difference is you dont have any prove about how its “richening” etc.
    And if you call someone a joke then you have to prove he is joke, his texts have links to original texts etc. Easy.

    -I guess they are now going to close his blog because of the things he has been writing on multiculturalism.

    Doubt that

    -Some of the comments on his blog are pretty sad.

    Show me one.

    -One of the things I consider cowardice is when a person uses arguments/bravado to kick people in a weaker social situation in the guts such as immigrants, Muslims, Somalis and others who are struggling in this society. Only a weakling/demagogue would do that.

    So we should let them do what they do and take more of them? And god forbit about talking of problems..

    • Enrique permalink
      December 14, 2008 10:27 am

      I think this guy should have stuck to morphological analysis instead of venturing into arranging arguments about ethnicity, Finns etc.. In this sense, he still lives in the 19th century (social Darwinism/historical evolutionaism) when academics justified colonialism because other cultures were “backwards.” These academics made such value judgments but rarely if ever traveled and studied these people directly. As a linguist he may know about morphological analysis but in social science he is a total dud.
      The sad comment is his defense of Lehto and what he said about the Somalis, among other populist comments.
      You (?), and him, and others, live in an alarmist mindset where you feel threatened. A good term is xenophobia.
      It is easy to pick and ridicule others that don’t have the same social weapons as you to defend themselves. That, I consider the most cowardice and disgraceful act.

  61. Tiwaz permalink
    December 15, 2008 5:23 am

    -It is easy to pick and ridicule others that don’t have the same social weapons as you to defend themselves. That, I consider the most cowardice and disgraceful act.

    Maybe they should learn something… Learn how society around them works and stop being so useless and defenceless. Not expect society to work into one that fits them.

    -There is a big difference with being obsessed from where others are and pinning your relationship on this. Of course culture plays a role. However, not in the way you think. How do you know which cultures do not fit here? Do you have scientific empirical data? I guess not.

    I know that practically none of the cultures fit in Finland without person from that culture having to adapt to Finnish culture. More distanced they are, for example muslims as more common group, more difficult it is.
    And because they refuse to integrate to Finnish society, trying to act and live as if they never left their home… They become problem.

    They do not fit in, they become problem instead of resource. They in their desperation not to change try to force Finland to change to fit them. Like you try to suggest Enrique.

    It will never work though. It will only cause problems. Finns will not sign away their culture, because it forms the foundation of our identity. Immigrants have to learn how to adjust their own way of life so that it is not in conflict with Finnish. They have to compromise their own culture, because it is native to this land. Native culture always takes preference, because it is one and common for all.

    Foreign cultures come from so diverse bag of differences that there is no realistic way that they can find any common ground.

    So, by using one culture, native one, as framework for what is Ok and what is not in society, and how interaction should take place… You reduce the cultural conflict dramatically. But this requires every immigrant to understand and accept that they have to compromise on their own cultural ways. They have to adjust it to fit Finland, to fit the Finnish context.

    Because alternative is conflict. And conflicts have habit to get worse, until finally violence is used to ultimately solve the situation. Trust me, you immigrants do not want things to get that far. Because you WILL lose.

    I do not want things to get that far either, I like Finland as it is. Safe, stable. Highly developed. I do not want to see repeat of 1917 when this country was divided the last time.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 15, 2008 6:07 am

      –Maybe they should learn something… Learn how society around them works and stop being so useless and defenceless. Not expect society to work into one that fits them.

      The people who you and some Finns ridicule are those foreigners that suffer from ethnic exclusion/racism with little chance of progressing in this society. Apart form the fact that your integration-by-perkele model does not work, it is also illegal.

      –I do not want things to get that far either, I like Finland as it is. Safe, stable. Highly developed. I do not want to see repeat of 1917 when this country was divided the last time.

      Yes, you are right. ALL groups should respect each other. As long as we don’t get a populist or demagogue running things in Finland, we will continue to be on the right path.

  62. intternetnetsi permalink
    December 15, 2008 6:42 am

    -but in social science he is a total dud.

    Show me one cultural trait he bashed what you think is good.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 15, 2008 11:42 am

      The Somali comment was pretty pathetic.

  63. Tiwaz permalink
    December 15, 2008 9:00 am

    -The people who you and some Finns ridicule are those foreigners that suffer from ethnic exclusion/racism with little chance of progressing in this society. Apart form the fact that your integration-by-perkele model does not work, it is also illegal.

    Because they are idiots who do not figure out that they have to change.
    When you are not progressing, it is hint that YOU are doing something wrong. Get head out of your ass, stop pretending that you and your culture are so precious that Finns have to compromise their culture in their country for your benefit and learn to work IN the society. Stop trying to change it.

    -Yes, you are right. ALL groups should respect each other. As long as we don’t get a populist or demagogue running things in Finland, we will continue to be on the right path.

    So why you refuse to respect Finnish culture? Why you demand that we natives have to compromise our home, our culture, our identity for sake of foreigners who could just remain at home if they do not want to change?

    We Finns never left, we were born here. You have no right to demand anything from us.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 15, 2008 11:45 am

      I think we have to focus the question a bit more: which group of foreigners are you speaking of (refugees, foreigners with Finnish ancestry, return emigrants or immigrants). From these groups, which specific nationality are you speaking of. After we know these things we can start to debate the matter more effectively.

  64. Tiwaz permalink
    December 15, 2008 9:01 am

    By the way, would like to see you answer to comment in “Spreading multiculturalism in Europe”.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 15, 2008 11:42 am

      Yes, I know. What I point out is that ethnic conflicts have been a problem. However, these have been caused by rulers or groups of people who have imposed their ways on others and caused, as a result, strife. It does not mean we have to go down that path again if we are educated and live/respect each other.

  65. Tiwaz permalink
    December 16, 2008 8:29 am

    Effectively all of them.

    Finns who moved away, lived elsewhere and then return… They usually eventually fit back in. Culture does not change quickly, so they adapt.

    Their children, or worse grandchildren, have no such ability. They are usually practically on same line as total foreigner unless they have spent very much time in Finland.

    After which people are very much the same, some people do come from cultures which tend to fit in bit more easily but most have issues.

    In certain sense, asians are best at integrating due to their cultural tendency to avoid confrontation. In this way their culture suits immigrating to other countries as they do not push their culture to others.

    Muslim cultures tend to be the worst from Finnish point of view, as their value world is totally opposite to Finnish one in general. And due to strong religious undertones they do not tend to integrate well.

    Between these extremes are rest. But there is no culture which fits into Finland without putting effort to it. Every immigrant has to accept that this is not country where things are like at home. If it was, it would not be another country.
    Then they have to accept that in Finland, it is the Finnish way which goes. Learn the framework and way Finnish society works, learn to adjust their own cultural values and habits to fit that framework.

    Not expect that Finns start to change their culture, in their own home, to fit some foreigners. That is unrealistic and arrogant.

    Multicultural approach just does not work. It expects natives to compromise their culture and society at benefit of foreigners. Of course from point of view of you foreigners it is more desirable, you preferring not to change yourself to live in foreign land. But it is repeatedly proven to be failure. It just does not work.

    So, immigrant starts by respecting native culture and it’s rules, and adjusts themselves to native culture.

  66. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    December 16, 2008 3:33 pm

    “This guy is a joke and I am surprised that you even take his “thoughts” seriously. Take some of his writings and read them 5 years from now and you will find out how ridiculous they are.”

    My sentiments exactly of your pathetic anti-Finnish views on ghetto paradise multiculturalism.

    “those foreigners that suffer from ethnic exclusion/racism with little chance of progressing in this society.”

    So what are they doing here?

    “Apart form the fact that your integration-by-perkele model does not work, it is also illegal.”

    They don’t want to integrate, so what. They can go live on someone elses tax moneys all I care.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 16, 2008 8:00 pm

      As a good conservative, you lack the ability to debate issues because you see things in such a black-and-white fashion sitting on an imaginary pedestal figuring out where people are from. In the same way you tell people to leave this country if they do not like it, I’ll tell you to take a hike from this blog. Now does that improve communication and understanding?

  67. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    December 16, 2008 4:39 pm

    Heres a good essay on Multiculturalism – when it was a “new” thing 10 years ago in the UK
    (add the www) city-journal.org/html/5_2_oh_to_be.html

    Gives you and idea of what I see as the problem. Its nothing to do with ethnicity or diversity, it has to do with values.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 16, 2008 7:51 pm

      Thank you for sending the link. It proves that there closed-minded people in EVERY culture, who are slow to adapt and reap the benefits of living in a new culture, which is their home. How do we solve these cases? I believe the UN Human Rights Declaration, the one you said was only a piece of paper, should apply.
      Another problem I see when people start to get “intelligent” about the pitfalls of multiculturalism, when people from different cultures live in the same society, is that they generalize and point out the most horrid things from our cultural point of view. Multiculturalism in Europe as been a slow and painful process. It has brought wars and “fantasy” theories by very so-called learned men. Alfred Rosenberg, the architect of Nazi racial policy, was, for example an architect by profession. In the same way, if I started to give my “intelligent” opinions over how a person should be operated, I would get into trouble. For this you need social scientists/anthropologists whose specialty is the study of societies.
      All societies have their problems. Does this mean tht we have to give up? Does it mean that we have to invalidate something because it has problems? In the same way I could write about things that may have happened to the girl who wetted the bed, I could write a horror story on the “dark side of Finnish society.” What would it serve except only to reinforce stereotypes.

  68. intternetnetsi permalink
    December 17, 2008 4:06 am

    .imaginary pedestal figuring out where people are from. In the same way you tell people to leave this country if they do not like it-

    Imaginary? statictics disagree and leaving or deporting is easiest solution.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 17, 2008 9:18 am

      If deportation is the easiest solution. Talk to your “kansanedustaja” and form a movement.

  69. intternetnetsi permalink
    December 17, 2008 4:32 am

    And equality act… you arent equal if you arent finnish. Your granparents didnt spill blood for this country.
    And yes we decide who is good enough to be finnish, not you, not goverment or not EU.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 17, 2008 9:19 am

      Since I know who I am I do not need your approval. It is unimportant.

  70. Calculator Man permalink
    December 17, 2008 8:02 am

    Not the government? You don’t have a Democracy in Finland?🙂

    • Enrique permalink
      December 17, 2008 9:38 am

      I think people such as Onkko, Tiwaz and others fell asleep in their civics classes, especially when the teacher was talking about the right to express oneself in a democratic society.

  71. intternetnetsi permalink
    December 17, 2008 11:02 pm

    -Since I know who I am I do not need your approval. It is unimportant.

    Then dont yell racism, finns decide who they like and who they employ. If you are finn you have good edge against others.
    If you feel finnish then obviously you dont have problem with that.

    “I think people such as Onkko, Tiwaz and others fell asleep in their civics classes, especially when the teacher was talking about the right to express oneself in a democratic society.”

    Thats your side who have done that deciding that everyone who disagree is uneducated drunk nazi.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 18, 2008 6:24 am

      –Thats your side who have done that deciding that everyone who disagree is uneducated drunk nazi.

      You said that. I never did.

  72. Tiwaz permalink
    December 18, 2008 6:09 am

    -I think people such as Onkko, Tiwaz and others fell asleep in their civics classes, especially when the teacher was talking about the right to express oneself in a democratic society.

    No, I accept your right to express yourself. But that does not mean I will sit here and watch you preach destruction of Finnish culture. I will damn sure oppose any such people.

    You would hope we Finns would just roll over and accept your immigrant ways as supreme to ours, but we did not survive centuries wedged between Russia and Sweden by not being stubborn and defending what is ours.

  73. Tiwaz permalink
    December 18, 2008 6:22 am

    You, Enrique, on other hand have repeatedly failed to provide any proof that your dear religion of multiculturalism can work.

    I throw at you lists of failures. How attempt of multiculturalism has lead mainly to disaster, destruction and suffering.

    But you fail to show this perfect, flawless multicultural society where things are just fine.
    All you can do is point out at USA, which has race riots, violence over the top, crime like there is no tomorrow and which lives on borrowed money.

    Or Canada, which until recently was dominated by very small cultural group. French and British… But when they started to receive REALLY different cultures, like those from Middle East, things started to turn for worse. To point where one canadian who moved to Finland actually mentioned that she was relieved to leave. Apparently having Iranian guy sort out old feuds with gun in Canada was little more than uncomfortable.

    Or Australia. With it’s rape issues, imams stating that blame rests upon AUSTRALIANS for not locking up their women and dressing them in potato sacks like islamic law declares. Not to mention other cultural problems.

    Or Brazil… Whose greatest achievement has been… Erm… Farming lots of sugarcane to distill into alcohol. Wow! What amazing nation! They really rule the world with their sugarcane. Country with negative immigration rate (why they leave if it is so good?), excessive crime and GDP per capita of 9000USD?

    Finland has over 30 000USD.

    So what is so great about multiculturalism? It has not proven ability to create society like Finnish anywhere. Stable, safe, advanced and wealthy…

  74. intternetnetsi permalink
    December 18, 2008 7:35 am

    -You said that. I never did.

    You said im uneducated, young and havent travelled nor seen foreigners. And those like saying racists and nazi is only weapons is your only weapons against us. And as seen theyre lies and blacking “enemy”.

    We have statistics and what happened already, you have dreams.

    Now prove us how your society works, its noble idea but just doesnt work imho.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 18, 2008 8:19 am

      I’ll buy the traveled and foreigners bit but that does not make you a “drunk nazi.”

      –Now prove us how your society works, its noble idea but just doesnt work imho.

      There are already 132,000 foreigners living in Finland. That is 10 times more than in the 1980s. To this group you have to add those children that were born in this country from multicultural marriages. So, Onkko, seeing is believing.

  75. Tiwaz permalink
    December 18, 2008 11:03 am

    But Finland is not multicultural, and those immigrants are causing huge issues.
    Like muslim rape, which is BIG issue. Specially if someone commits idiocy of permitting Turkey to join EU.

    I wait for working multicultural society. You can’t show it can you…

    • Enrique permalink
      December 18, 2008 7:07 pm

      Show me a perfect society… No?! But a well-functioning society is Canada, US, Sweden, Spain, etc…

  76. Calculator Man permalink
    December 18, 2008 4:15 pm

    How should a multicultural society work if there are monkey brains like you here. You don’t even give them a chance just because they look different and talk different than you. Are you still living in the Stone Age? I guess you have been to a Pizza Place lately again🙂

    • Enrique permalink
      December 18, 2008 7:08 pm

      Didn’t you mention that some of the bloggers that post in Migrant Tales would suffer from culture shock if they entered a pizzeria?🙂

  77. Tiwaz permalink
    December 19, 2008 3:43 pm

    -How should a multicultural society work if there are monkey brains like you here. You don’t even give them a chance just because they look different and talk different than you. Are you still living in the Stone Age? I guess you have been to a Pizza Place lately again

    You imbeciles are so pathetic in your wishful thinking. I am living in modern age, in modern high tech country. Thanks to MONOCULTURALISM.

    Multiculturalism has only brought failure. As we saw with comparison of Finland vs Argentina. All you guys could find to speak in behalf of Argyland was their lesser debt. Everything else was inferior there.

    -Show me a perfect society… No?! But a well-functioning society is Canada, US, Sweden, Spain, etc…

    Canada, mainly monocultural with minor differences. Where movement against multiculturalism is getting stronger every day after they were introduced to REALLY different culture.

    USA, unstable, unsafe and ready to turn against itself. Race riots etc.

    Sweden, Malmö with riots. Muslims burning cars and rioting. Rape statistics through the roof for muslim minority.

    Spain, instability and internal conflicts. Terrorist organisations fighting for dividing country. Different domestic ethnicities conflicting. Immigrants being bribed to leave. Unstable and unsafe country.

    Failure upon failure is piled on multiculturalism.

    Finland, safe and stable. No internal conflicts, sami and swedish speakers are content with their life under Finnish cultural norms. There are no riots since there are no large culturally conflicting minorities. No drive by shootouts, no gang wars.

    Clearly monoculturalism is far more functional compared to your multiculturalism.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 19, 2008 10:32 pm

      Here is an interesting definition of racism by Karmela Liebkind (1994, 39). “Rasismi perustuu sen ijaan kuvitelmiin, joiden mukaan tietty ihmisryhmä on toista ryhmää moraalisesti, älyllisesti ja kulttuurisesti korkeammalla tasolla ja sen ylivoimaiset ominaisuudet periytyvät sukulpolvelta toiselle.”

    • Enrique permalink
      December 19, 2008 11:25 pm

      Here is an interesting definition of racism by Karmela Liebkind (1994, 39). “Rasismi perustuu sen ijaan kuvitelmiin, joiden mukaan tietty ihmisryhmä on toista ryhmää moraalisesti, älyllisesti ja kulttuurisesti korkeammalla tasolla ja sen ylivoimaiset ominaisuudet periytyvät sukulpolvelta toiselle.”

    • Enrique permalink
      December 20, 2008 12:11 am

      –Multiculturalism has only brought failure. As we saw with comparison of Finland vs Argentina. All you guys could find to speak in behalf of Argyland was their lesser debt. Everything else was inferior there.

      I guess you still have not figured out that I am not into comparing countries and which are better, just like when it comes to different groups.

      Boy, you are a negative person. But go on and continue to live in your racial fantasy world. If you represent the majority in Finland, I feel sorry for this country. It is doomed.

  78. Calculator Man permalink
    December 19, 2008 9:29 pm

    And the other European Countries are not High Tech Countries? Seems you have a big problem with Muslims. Do you know at least one by person?

    There are some countries which have also “MONOCULTURALISM” and are not High Tech Countries🙂 So your Thesis does not really work…

  79. Tiwaz permalink
    December 20, 2008 10:37 am

    -And the other European Countries are not High Tech Countries? Seems you have a big problem with Muslims. Do you know at least one by person?

    There are some countries which have also “MONOCULTURALISM” and are not High Tech Countries🙂 So your Thesis does not really work…

    Those countries became high tech when they did not play by this multiculturalism crap. And when they started importing incompatible cultural groups… They started to get into trouble.

    French riots, Swedish riots, rapes, murder, white flight…

    -I guess you still have not figured out that I am not into comparing countries and which are better, just like when it comes to different groups.

    If multiculturalism fails to produce stable, safe and functional society when it has radically different cultures inside it’s borders, then it shows that multiculturalism does not work.

    And it does not work. Multiculturalism “works” only as long as cultural differences are minimal, and/or other cultures are subject to framework of values of ONE culture. When they attempt to have mutlicple “equal” cultural value sets or import radically different cultural groups (like muslims in western world) it ends up destabilising the society.

    You are not into comparing countries because you know in your heart that multiculturalism does not work. But since your parents fed you that crap from childhood, you can’t let go of your religion no matter how many times it fails.

    Finland is not doomed, by contrary, if we can keep that multiculturalism away we are looking at future of prosperity when other countries succumb to conflict and instability. We are looking at people looking upwards to places like Finland and Japan which have managed to maintain their society as stable and functional.

    And at that point people will be begging to be admitted to Finland, and we are in position to pick only the best and best integrating ones.

    But if you get your way and multiculturalism comes to Finland. this country IS doomed. At least until natives get enough of it and start fighting back.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 20, 2008 1:39 pm

      –If multiculturalism fails to produce stable, safe and functional society when it has radically different cultures inside it’s borders, then it shows that multiculturalism does not work.

      I disagree. The fact is that until thirty years ago blacks in the US were seen as “inferior” and not fit as Americans. Today we have a black president. Who would have though in the 1970s that the US would have its first black president. Sorry to disappoint you but your arguments do not hold water.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 20, 2008 1:45 pm

      –But if you get your way and multiculturalism comes to Finland. this country IS doomed. At least until natives get enough of it and start fighting back.

      I have a suggestion. If you oppose multiculturalism and are aiming to use violence to change something that you cannot and that is part of our legal framework, why not form a party and run in the next election. The PS could be a good party where your ideas would find a home. Let’s see how many votes and MPs you’ll get. That is how our democracy works. And, if you start to use violence to force your political ideas, you will end up in jail. Why should I tell you this if you claim to “know” more about this country than me? Aren’t you the so-called NATIVE?

  80. intternetnetsi permalink
    December 21, 2008 4:00 am

    -I disagree. The fact is that until thirty years ago blacks in the US were seen as “inferior” and not fit as Americans.

    They still are, there is huge people in china but still they are mainly smaller than us. There is retards in china but still they are mainly more clever than us. What it does is it takes blacks “were oppressed under racism” lie away and they have to take responsibility on what they do.
    There has never been problem with foreigners in finland, we of course dont trust them on first but when they got our appreciation they become part what we call finnish. Look military and look goverment.

  81. intternetnetsi permalink
    December 21, 2008 4:07 am

    And US is under apartheid now like UK and Canada and such. I dont want that in here.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 21, 2008 8:59 am

      Do you know what apartheid is?

  82. Tiwaz permalink
    December 22, 2008 8:41 am

    -I disagree. The fact is that until thirty years ago blacks in the US were seen as “inferior” and not fit as Americans. Today we have a black president. Who would have though in the 1970s that the US would have its first black president. Sorry to disappoint you but your arguments do not hold water.

    Black president, high crime, divided and unstable society and economic disaster.
    Multicultural America is debt piling disaster about to topple in decade or two. It is essentially a failure. Not just that, but it is sick society. Just think about it, we are talking about bible thumping nation which finds showing people being slaughtered, maimed and brutalized to be just fine. But seeing a nipple is grounds to huge scandal!

    -I have a suggestion. If you oppose multiculturalism and are aiming to use violence to change something that you cannot and that is part of our legal framework, why not form a party and run in the next election. The PS could be a good party where your ideas would find a home. Let’s see how many votes and MPs you’ll get. That is how our democracy works. And, if you start to use violence to force your political ideas, you will end up in jail. Why should I tell you this if you claim to “know” more about this country than me? Aren’t you the so-called NATIVE?

    I am not “so-called”, I AM native. Born and raised here. What are you? You call yourself “Finn”, but you were born in Argentina, lived in Los Angeles and so forth. What connection you have to this country? None!

    You are just another foreigner, wanting to place foreigners above Finns in Finland.
    And how do you know I am not in politics as it is?

    You also, I guess from inherent stupidity or Latin American way of thinking with emotion instead of reason, fail to notice that I speak in future term. You immigrants have not yet become troublesome enough in Finland to cause natives to move against you. But if you look at countries which have enjoyed the “enrichment” of immigrants for longer time…

    You notice that extreme right are gaining ground rather rapidly. People over there are fed up with foreigners coming and telling how natives should live. It is progress which will come to Finland as well unless immigrants understand that trying to annoy Finns is a bad and shortsighted policy and start to integrate into Finnish society instead of trying to force Finnish society to integrate to them.

    Specially since “them” is so divided group. Because Finnish society cannot integrate to Somalian, Bolivian and Thai cultures at once. That is why it is essential that these immigrants integrate to Finnish society.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 22, 2008 11:05 am

      –Black president, high crime, divided and unstable society and economic disaster.
      Multicultural America is debt piling disaster about to topple in decade or two. It is essentially a failure. Not just that, but it is sick society.

      There are healthy and sick parts in US society. The healthy part is that it has the ability to change. That, if you did not know, is one of the great strengths of the United States. Even so, the Bush years have been pretty dismal.

      –You are just another foreigner, wanting to place foreigners above Finns in Finland. And how do you know I am not in politics as it is?

      Yes, that is my plan. To take over Finland. My plan has been foiled.

      –You immigrants have not yet become troublesome enough in Finland to cause natives to move against you. But if you look at countries which have enjoyed the “enrichment” of immigrants for longer time…

      Some of your arguments are so off base that I cannot take them seriously. I think you try to test some of our patience and tolerance. It’s a poor strategy expecting me to fall to the level of your arguments and, worse, get personal. If you are such a “model” so-called native Finn, why do you get personal if that is a no-no in public debate in this country. Keeping a cool head, I think, they call it.

      –Specially since “them” is so divided group. Because Finnish society cannot integrate to Somalian, Bolivian and Thai cultures at once. That is why it is essential that these immigrants integrate to Finnish society.

      Integration is a two-way process. We make room for each other and this DOES NOT mean appeasement. It is what some would call common sense.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 22, 2008 11:37 am

      –Specially since “them” is so divided group. Because Finnish society cannot integrate to Somalian, Bolivian and Thai cultures at once. That is why it is essential that these immigrants integrate to Finnish society.

      All these groups you mention have high unemployment rates. It is very difficult to integrate them in ANY society as long as they are unemployed. So, that is Finland’s and foreigners’ first challenge — to get a decent job.

  83. Tiwaz permalink
    December 22, 2008 12:33 pm

    -All these groups you mention have high unemployment rates. It is very difficult to integrate them in ANY society as long as they are unemployed. So, that is Finland’s and foreigners’ first challenge — to get a decent job.

    They get a job when they LEARN TO SPEAK AND ACT.

    In case you haven’t figured it out, being able to communicate and present yourself in favorable fashion are essential parts of becoming employed.

    If immigrants are so stupid or lazy that they do not understand to learn to act in Finnish society according to workings of Finnish society they do not deserve any pity. It is their choice not to learn to work with the system.

    Job comes to those who go through trouble of learning how society works. That is how it should be. It is reward for hard work.

    You want to make immigrants some kind of superior class who do not need to integrate to society. Because those who get jobs do not integrate any better, once they get a job they easily stop integration.

    -There are healthy and sick parts in US society. The healthy part is that it has the ability to change. That, if you did not know, is one of the great strengths of the United States. Even so, the Bush years have been pretty dismal.

    Except it has not changed. They started as religious raving loonies (much of them being this or that religious puritan group) and still are by and large.

    And their whole society is unstable and ready to collapse on itself.

    -Some of your arguments are so off base that I cannot take them seriously. I think you try to test some of our patience and tolerance. It’s a poor strategy expecting me to fall to the level of your arguments and, worse, get personal. If you are such a “model” so-called native Finn, why do you get personal if that is a no-no in public debate in this country. Keeping a cool head, I think, they call it.

    Because you, foreigner attack my culture and country. Things that are extremely dear to me.
    And where did I get personal? Were you born in Finland? No. So you are immigrant.
    Are immigrants not much more numerous in various other European societies with longer history behind them? Yes.

    Are those societies not riddled with problems resulting from this cultural conflict? Yes.
    Has this addition of immigrants who do not integrate solved ANY problems that would exist without immigrants? No. Have they added other problems which would not exist without large minority of unintegrating immigrants? Yes.

    Are anti-immigrant parties gaining ground in Europe? Yes. Is this logically because people are getting more and more fed up with unintegrating immigrants? More than likely.

    I never insulted you there. I stated how things are. Europe is waking up, Europeans do not appriciate foreigners coming and trying to force their culture upon existing ones. And reaction to that is starting.

    -Integration is a two-way process. We make room for each other and this DOES NOT mean appeasement. It is what some would call common sense.

    It is appeasement if we forfeit parts of our culture to make you more at home. We might add portions of your culture to ours, but only if WE see it beneficial for US.

    We have our country, which we like to keep as our country. WE DO NOT BARTER WITH OUR CULTURE.

    This is NOT about you saying “if we agree not to smile will you agree to XXXX”. No, no and no.

    Our country, our rules. Accept or fuck off. If you don’t do either one, don’t bitch when your decision comes and kicks your ass.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 22, 2008 7:13 pm

      –They get a job when they LEARN TO SPEAK AND ACT.

      Maybe not even then.

      –If immigrants are so stupid or lazy that they do not understand to learn to act in Finnish society according to workings of Finnish society they do not deserve any pity. It is their choice not to learn to work with the system.

      Do you really think that immigrants are “stupid and lazy” and therefore cannot get jobs?

      –Because you, foreigner attack my culture and country. Things that are extremely dear to me.
      And where did I get personal? Were you born in Finland? No. So you are immigrant.
      Are immigrants not much more numerous in various other European societies with longer history behind them? Yes.

      If I were born in Finland you would look for something else to exclude me. Try as much as you want but you won’t succeed. It is as an impossible of a task as asking you to be tolerant, level-headed and embrace multiculturalism. You get personal when you say “stupid foreigner,” “imbecile” etc…

      –Are anti-immigrant parties gaining ground in Europe? Yes. Is this logically because people are getting more and more fed up with unintegrating immigrants? More than likely.

      I would not say that anti-immigrant parties are posing a threat; the PS in Finland got 5% of the vote but it is not enough to make a dent never mind get in government.

      Ashamed of where I am from and the cultures where I have grown up and lived? Nah. I guess you could say that they are a part of me but I don’t allow them to dominate my perception of things. Some, correctly call it hybrid culture. And how do you know where I grew up and what cultures influenced me?

  84. intternetnetsi permalink
    December 25, 2008 10:59 am

    -I would not say that anti-immigrant parties are posing a threat; the PS in Finland got 5% of the vote but it is not enough to make a dent never mind get in government.

    They arent anti immigrant, just anti unneeded and hurting immigration, get your facts. And check how their support is growing.

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