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Finnish “mono-” versus “multicultural” debate

December 20, 2008

There has been an ongoing ping-pong debate on how good or bad is mono versus multiculturalism. I believe that this type of debate is fruitless because European cultures in general and Finland in particular have always been multicultural.

To quote one of our avid “monoculturalist:”

I have no feeling of inferiority, Enrique, quite the opposite. Looking at how horribly you multiculturalists have failed in your nationbuilding, I feel rather secure and superior considering how my country has managed to become wealthy, stable and well functioning. Which is why I oppose your suggestions of bringing that failure to Finland

One of the biggest fallacies that our education in Finland is committing with our children is that they are still being taught that somehow human growth and creativity in Finland tended to occur within separate and isolated cultures. There is little emphasis placed on how Finnish culture/other cultures mixed and formed constantly changing societal variants.

Claude Lévy-Strauss, the dean of structural anthropology who will turn 100 on November 28, speaks about the role of the incest taboo in different society. Apart from genetic disorders, the incest taboo forces — according to Lévy-Strauss — members of a family to marry outside of the group. This means that through marriage a family group becomes more extended by forging new family ties, which help it to survive more effectively.

In my opinion, cultures and societies work in the same way: cultures have for thousands of years been in constant contact with each other through traders, explorers, pirates, travelers, multicultural marriages and in other ways. They have taken part in a sort of dynamic “cultural market place” were we barter and try on new customs, ideas and ways to solve problems in our society more effectively.

One anthropologist mentioned that defenders of the classic view of separate and isolated cultural development believe, incorrectly, that classical Greece sprung from nowhere. However, their growth was not a pure and isolated event, but through Greek encounters with foreigners (traders etc).

So, in many respects, multiculturalism has always existed because humankind has not believed in isolation but on survival. Cultural exchanges, incorporating and trading different parts of our culture not only offers us the exciting prospect to try something new, but offers us an opportunity to create a more resilient and stronger society.

Thanks to multiculturalism we have been able to build diverse societies in Europe, for example, that are in a still in the process of constant change.

However, whenever a group raises the monocultural flag, that usually sparks strife and mass wars. Nazi Germany and the former Yugoslavia are prime examples of this type of “monocultural bullying” and its utter failure as a model.

45 Comments leave one →
  1. Tiwaz permalink
    December 20, 2008 12:13 pm

    What you do not grasp, is that forever it has been NATIVES of culture who determine how culture is changed. They decide how they adjust the possible changes and if they take them in. NATIVES.

    Only times foreigners have had any say on how culture changes is when they take over the land inhabited by representatives of other culture. At that point, generally it has meaned annihilation of native culture and replacement it with foreign culture.

    This is what you suggest. Pushing away Finnish cultrue from Finland until there is no longer Finnish culture. It has been wiped out. We Finns do not want to incorporate to our culture what you are offering. We do not barter with our culture on your terms, this is our culture, our society, our country and that means it is OUR call. Not yours.

    Every single time any nation has tried multiculturalism, it has led to conflict as one or more groups inside feel that they are under attack, rightfully or not most usually rightfully, by another culture. And seek to defend their culture and way of life.

    This results in war. Other times, some group uses divisions created by multiculturalism as catalyst for their own agenda. Without these divisions they would not have leverage to push people.

    So failure is upon attempt of forcing different cultures with incompatible values to live together as “equals”. It only leads to situation where both sides are offended as they find themselves insulted by other cultural groups.

    As you have pointed out, Finland HAS other cultural groups inside it’s borders. Has had for ages. But those cultural groups accept that FINNISH cultural norms form the framework in which all cultures act. Sami people do not try to push their culture to Finns, they adjusted their way of life to Finnish culture. Resulting in ability to coexist without conflict.

    If they had not and their culture had been in conflict with Finnish, they would have been wiped out centuries ago.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 20, 2008 1:37 pm

      –What you do not grasp, is that forever it has been NATIVES of culture who determine how culture is changed. They decide how they adjust the possible changes and if they take them in. NATIVES.

      Nah, it is the people who form part and identify with a culture. People are smart, cultures pragmatic, they know what is right for them. You cannot control that. It was tried during that period when you grew up in Finland. Restrictions on different nationalities were commonplace. That, in my opinion, was unnatural. Just go to a market place and tell everyone there what they should buy and how they spend their money. It won’t work.

      –This is what you suggest. Pushing away Finnish cultrue from Finland until there is no longer Finnish culture. It has been wiped out. We Finns do not want to incorporate to our culture what you are offering. We do not barter with our culture on your terms, this is our culture, our society, our country and that means it is OUR call. Not yours.

      This is what some call xenophobia.

      –So failure is upon attempt of forcing different cultures with incompatible values to live together as “equals”. It only leads to situation where both sides are offended as they find themselves insulted by other cultural groups.

      This is what some call racism.

      — As you have pointed out, Finland HAS other cultural groups inside it’s borders. Has had for ages. But those cultural groups accept that FINNISH cultural norms form the framework in which all cultures act.

      Then this proves that other cultures can also live in this country harmoniously.

  2. December 20, 2008 7:51 pm

    Firstly, inbreeding is rare not because of “incest taboos” but because of the Westermarck effect.

    As to the rest of your post, you unwittingly demonstrate that immigration is completely unnecessary for transmission of ideas across cultures. Traditionally, people accept those foreign ideas that are deemed useful, and reject others. However, in the era of mass migration this is no longer possible: now we must accept the cultures of foreign peoples in toto as it’s the peoples who now migrate, not ideas. This is particularly problematic because the direction of migration is from the failed Third World cultures to the successful Western ones, which means that the failed ideas of crummy cultures are spread into the West.

    When you painted a glorious picture of the “cultural market place” where different peoples and ideas mingle, you forgot to mention another commonplace of international relations: war. Interaction between different peoples and ethnic groups has always led to conflict and war. A central reason for both WWI and WWII was the historical dispersion of ethnic Germans across numerous European nations. Large groups of different peoples living in the same place is an inherently volatile combination. Yugoslavia is a case in point.

    The genius of the ethnically defined nation-state is that is eliminates that kind volatility and makes it impossible for imperialists to play divide and rule. This is why homogeneous nation states are the happiest, most stable, and wealthy human communities in history. In the immigrant ghettoes of many European cities, you can see the seeds of civil war and tyranny. Multiculturalism is tantamount to war, instability, imperialism, inequality, and poverty.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 20, 2008 8:48 pm

      –As to the rest of your post, you unwittingly demonstrate that immigration is completely unnecessary for transmission of ideas across cultures. Traditionally, people accept those foreign ideas that are deemed useful, and reject others. However, in the era of mass migration this is no longer possible: now we must accept the cultures of foreign peoples in toto as it’s the peoples who now migrate, not ideas.

      We live in a globalized world where information and ideas travel rapidly. Ideas come from contact with people and their cultures. Certainly people accept ideas that are useful to them. However, the argument is that many of the ideas, instruments, concepts have sprung and are implanted in our respective cultures hundreds, even thousands of years ago.

      What is called “Western culture” by now is incorporating traditions from faraway places. Our number system derives from India; our alphabet, from the Middle East. A significant amount of the vegetables and crops we grow and consume derive from the native peoples of the Americas.

      –Interaction between different peoples and ethnic groups has always led to conflict and war. A central reason for both WWI and WWII was the historical dispersion of ethnic Germans across numerous European nations. Large groups of different peoples living in the same place is an inherently volatile combination. Yugoslavia is a case in point.

      In a way I agree but the problem of these wars has always been cultural domination, cultural superiority and cultural bullying of minorities. What about if these latter three things did not occur? What about if cultures found common goals? If you live in a globalized world you cannot expect to have high economic growth without importing labor. What are you then going to do with foreign labor? Try to beat it in their heads that they are inferior, less intelligent and culturally clumsy?

      The nation-state has its good and bad points but it is now under strain thanks to our technology, economic growth, etc.

      I don’t buy that homogeneous states are the “happiest.” How do you measure “happiness?” Look what happened to Germany when it shifted to “monoculturalism.” Moreover, there is no such thing as “homogenous” nations. That is a myth. My point is that there is such a thing as the “global village” and the idea that cultures sprung up from nowhere is a lot of hogwash.

  3. December 21, 2008 7:21 pm

    “We live in a globalized world where information and ideas travel rapidly. Ideas come from contact with people and their cultures. Certainly people accept ideas that are useful to them. However, the argument is that many of the ideas, instruments, concepts have sprung and are implanted in our respective cultures hundreds, even thousands of years ago.”

    Yes, and all this happened for millenia without the ideology of multiculturalism. Why are you trying to conflate mass immigration with the transmission of ideas across cultures, when, by your own words, these two phenomena are not related to each other?

    “In a way I agree but the problem of these wars has always been cultural domination, cultural superiority and cultural bullying of minorities. What about if these latter three things did not occur? What about if cultures found common goals?”

    What if cows could fly? What I don’t understand that when–after millenia of tyranny, wars, oppression, slavery, famine, disease, poverty–people in some corners of the globe have managed to create stable, wealthy, democratic nation-states, folks like you find it necessary that these nation-states be destroyed so that some pie-in-the-sky kumbaya utopia could be realised. For us Finns the Finnish nation is exactly the place where we are shielded from “cultural domination, cultural superiority and cultural bullyig of minorities”, i.e. the things we were subjected to for most of our history. But for you this “lintukoto” is intolerable, and Finns have an obligation to let their nation be colonized by foreigners.

    If you live in a globalized world you cannot expect to have high economic growth without importing labor. What are you then going to do with foreign labor? Try to beat it in their heads that they are inferior, less intelligent and culturally clumsy?

    Firstly, the idea that high economic growth trumps concerns such as cultural continuity, equitable division of income, and labor rights, is revolting to me. Secondly, the labor shortage story is the biggest lie of our time, along with the related lies about multiculturalism. Finland suffers from mass unemployment at the moment, and in coming years the global recession will likely wipe out hundreds of thousands of jobs more. The immigrant unemployment rate is even higher than the native one, meaning that there is no demand for their labor except as a reserve that serves to lower wages.

    Just about any job opening offering livable wage in Finland gets dozens if not hundreds of applicants. You have to be a moron to believe that there’s labor shortage in Finland. And by the way, the biggest baby boomer generations have already retired for the most part, without affecting the unemployment rate in any significant way.

    “I don’t buy that homogeneous states are the “happiest.” How do you measure “happiness?” Look what happened to Germany when it shifted to “monoculturalism.””

    Well, of course studies of happiness are problematic because happiness is subjective, but here’s the top ten from one study:

    * 1 Denmark
    * 2 Switzerland
    * 3 Austria
    * 4 Iceland
    * 5 Bahamas
    * 6 Finland
    * 7 Sweden
    * 8 Bhutan
    * 9 Brunei
    * 10 Canada (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/denmark-is-the-worlds-happiest-country–official-410075.html)

    The homogeneous nation-state = happiness connection is not in any manner perfect (Asian cultures in general aren’t happy), but there’s something to it. However, the more objective studies such as the Human Development Index indicate the superiority of ethnic nation states.

    Your knowledge of history seems to very shallow, as Nazi Germany is the only historical example you constantly bring up. Ever heard of Godwin’s Law? There are hundreds of nationalisms in the world, and all you can think of is Nazism.

    “Moreover, there is no such thing as “homogenous” nations. That is a myth. My point is that there is such a thing as the “global village” and the idea that cultures sprung up from nowhere is a lot of hogwash.”

    By homogeneous nations I mean nations where one ethnicity is overwhelmingly numerous, and calls the shots. This is not incompatible with giving minorities rights, as has happened with the small historical minorities in Finland. If however the minorities grow uncontrollably the entire basis of the nation crumbles.

    Where is this “global village” located? I’d like to visit it. Your stuff about cultures springing up from nowhere is a strawman, and has nothing to do with multiculturalism; I don’t know why you keep bringing it up.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 21, 2008 8:23 pm

      –Your knowledge of history seems to very shallow, as Nazi Germany is the only historical example you constantly bring up. Ever heard of Godwin’s Law? There are hundreds of nationalisms in the world, and all you can think of is Nazism.

      That’s funny that you say that. One of my pet areas is World War 2. I think it is extremely important and due to the mass systematic extermination of people it is in its own league. The purges of the 1930s in the former Soviet Union were just as bad. However, none really compares to what happened during the Nazi era. I mentioned it as an chronic aberration since we should not forget what collective hysteria, madness and racial laws/racism can bring. There is also the genocide of the Armenians of Turks, Hutus and Tutsies etc. However, tell me where systematic mass murder has been committed on such a grand scale as in Nazi Germany?

    • Enrique permalink
      December 21, 2008 8:24 pm

      What is your definition of multiculturalism? Do you mean the Canadian policy of multiculturalism or just multicultural society? Do you believe in integration, assimilation or acculturation? How much should a minority adapt to the majority culture?

  4. December 21, 2008 9:24 pm

    The various genocides in Mao’s China, Stalin’s Soviet Union, and Pol Pot’s Cambodia were of similar scale as the Holocaust. All those murderous regimes were celebrated by the leftist intelligentsia as superbly progressive. Today’s leftist intelligentsia promotes multiculturalism, and this will lead to atrocities on a grand scale, too.

    By multiculturalism I mean simply the ideology that stuffing lots of people of various races and ethnicities in the same place is in itself a desirable thing, rather than a potentially ruinous policy. Immigrants should change their ways in order to fit in the host society, not the other way round. A liberal society like Finland offers ample room for sub-cultures as it is, and there is no need to change anything so as to appease immigrants.

  5. Tiwaz permalink
    December 22, 2008 8:31 am

    -Nah, it is the people who form part and identify with a culture. People are smart, cultures pragmatic, they know what is right for them. You cannot control that. It was tried during that period when you grew up in Finland. Restrictions on different nationalities were commonplace. That, in my opinion, was unnatural. Just go to a market place and tell everyone there what they should buy and how they spend their money. It won’t work.

    So why you try to push your culture to us? If your culture and ways had any benefit to offer, we would have adopted it already. We have not, so it holds no value to us.

    So how about you learning how to live in Finland according to Finnish culture, because it is right for you, and stop bitching how we refuse to copy your failure of a culture to replace ours.

    You are one coming here, to OUR country and telling that we should stop living like we prefer and instead emulate your failured system.

    -Then this proves that other cultures can also live in this country harmoniously.

    Are you that stupid? Other cultures can live in this country only if they accept framework of FINNISH CULTURE. Go on and try to find Swedish minority or Sami minority having any notable cultural traditions which are in conflict with Finnish.

    There aren’t any, because due to problems caused by such conflicts would have destroyed those cultures. So, instead of trying to force their culture upon Finns, they accepted that they have to adjust their culture.

    That is what I expect from immigrants as well. You take Finnish culture and remove all parts of your native culture which are in conflict with Finnish culture. Result, harmony. If you demand that your cultural rules must be respected as if this was your native land, you just beg for conflict.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 22, 2008 11:10 am

      –So why you try to push your culture to us? If your culture and ways had any benefit to offer, we would have adopted it already. We have not, so it holds no value to us.

      Nobody is pushing anything on you. We live in a democratic society which means we have choices. That is our right. Then there is the law and what is considered illegal. Read the Equality Act.

      What are the cultural rules that come into conflict? Is it McDonalds versus 1960s grilli kioski version of the hamburger with a fried egg? Is this what you call cultural invasion? What do you mean? What do you consider SO threatening? Is it competition for work and social benefits? What?

    • Enrique permalink
      December 22, 2008 11:41 am

      –So how about you learning how to live in Finland according to Finnish culture, because it is right for you, and stop bitching how we refuse to copy your failure of a culture to replace ours. You are one coming here, to OUR country and telling that we should stop living like we prefer and instead emulate your failured system.

      This shows your low-esteem for others. I am not coming to YOUR country — I am living in OUR country. I guess you still do not get it. A healthy society has diverse opinions. However, if they come from someone who does not fit your narrow view of who is a Finn, right away you get a knee-jerk reaction: adapt to our culture. Can’t you see how ludicrous your arguments are. You sound very much — probably a bit too much — like DeTant.

  6. Tiwaz permalink
    December 22, 2008 12:16 pm

    -This shows your low-esteem for others. I am not coming to YOUR country — I am living in OUR country. I guess you still do not get it. A healthy society has diverse opinions. However, if they come from someone who does not fit your narrow view of who is a Finn, right away you get a knee-jerk reaction: adapt to our culture. Can’t you see how ludicrous your arguments are. You sound very much — probably a bit too much — like DeTant.

    You were not born in this country, you have not been raised in this country. You have no connection with this country. You do not respect the culture of this country.

    How this could be your country if you do not accept things that make it THIS country but instead try to push your own culture and values down the throats of us native?

    Why you do not see that to me it is offensive for you to come to this country, this country where my family has resided for generations, and presume you have some kind of right to start telling me how to live in MY BIRTHPLACE. I do not come to your country of origin to tell how you should switch your society to one resembling Finnish. But then again, I am polite unlike you.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 22, 2008 7:21 pm

      –Why you do not see that to me it is offensive for you to come to this country, this country where my family has resided for generations, and presume you have some kind of right to start telling me how to live in MY BIRTHPLACE. I do not come to your country of origin to tell how you should switch your society to one resembling Finnish. But then again, I am polite unlike you.

      Hey, my family has resided for generation in this country as well. This country is a pluralistic democracy. I am surprised that it has not dawned on you that there are different opinions about Finnish society. If I can respect your view of Finnish society but then you must reciprocate. Some people do not see Finland the way you do. Finland, as love, is in the eye of the beholder.

      –I do not come to your country of origin to tell how you should switch your society to one resembling Finnish. But then again, I am polite unlike you.

      Hey, be my guest. It does not bother me one bit because I learned one of the most important lessons from living in a democracy and in a dictatorship: allowing others to air their opinions.

  7. Tiwaz permalink
    December 22, 2008 12:18 pm

    Yes, we live in democratic society. That means we Finns have every right not to want to deal with you foreigners who do not respect our culture.

    If that means you just did not get the job because you are not speaking language or understanding of culture. Tough luck, you CHOSE not to learn how things work in Finland.

    Your choice, your failure.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 22, 2008 5:48 pm

      Do you really thing it is that way? Come on! Is this another one of your tease jokes. People make an effort to learn the language and integrate in this society. You speak as if every immigrant that comes to Finland locks himself/herself in a corner and does not want to learn anything about this culture. I think, however, the problem goes much deeper than one person not wanting to integrate.

  8. December 22, 2008 6:10 pm

    Interesting, there are similar dialogues going on here in Yhdysvallat. Some of those that have been here for some generations are all for keeping anyone else from coming here and use some of the same arguements I see in the comments section here. While I am proud to be a Finn, I realize that no culture can go it alone. There is a lot of the Finnish culture to be proud of, but a lot of it is really somebody else’s culture. Some time back someone pointed out where most of the traditions of this season come from. Would someone tell me what traditional celebrations were held before the Chuch invaded??

    • Enrique permalink
      December 22, 2008 9:14 pm

      Terve Kulkuri, nice to hear from you. Yes, that is the way it seems to be in Finland. Thank you for your good question, which is highlighted in http://www.lasttrumpetministries.org/tracts/tract3.html
      Like in all cultures, there are good and not-so-good things. Culture takes on a new meaning when we start calling the place where it is practiced “home.” Paljon kiitoksia.

  9. intternetnetsi permalink
    December 23, 2008 2:16 am

    Problem isnt cultures or races, problem is when we are asked to understand and condone those. I cant care less if you are black, purple, white or whatever as long you dont insult my, i am local, culture. I will tell that your culture have fucked up values and thats not racism/nazism/phobia.
    Multiculturalism tells that every culture is equal, well its lie like communism and socialism. See ism on all.

    http://openlibrary.org/details/throughfinlandin00tweeuoft

    Read about woman liberties in there, thats part of my culture. And someone coming from muslim country have either accept that or fuck off.
    We were first in europe to give right to vote for womans and i grow up in enviroment where woman is equal.
    Of course there is still bit that house is called by mans name but all knows who really runs it, culture.

    And about gays/lesbians, in finnish culture what happens in bedroom stays in bedroom and we dont really want to know. I condone homosexuality but since its not my business if someone is i just dont care. One of my friends is gay but since he dont try to hit me im ok with that, thats his business.

    There are some what i want to preserve, womans right as equal and gays right to be what they want to be as equal. everyone as equal. Some cultures hang people like that.

    And multiculturalism isnt for equal, its like 100m run has to have 90m starting points for whites.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 23, 2008 10:28 am

      –Read about woman liberties in there, thats part of my culture. And someone coming from muslim country have either accept that or f*** off.
      We were first in europe to give right to vote for womans and i grow up in enviroment where woman is equal.

      Yes, it is a big no-no to discriminate against women in Finland. It is a sure way to get you in a lot of hot water. Women must still fight for equal pay in Finland.
      Did you know, Onkko, that Finland was one of the first counties in the world(?)/Europe to pass the far-reaching Equality Act/Yhteisvertaisuuslaki. Just like with women and other minorities in this country, the job of gaining social rights is a long path. It is a good matter that we have as a nation started to walk on that path.

  10. intternetnetsi permalink
    December 23, 2008 8:25 pm

    -Women must still fight for equal pay in Finland.

    Bullshit. Woman are prone to work in areas like nurses what arent as good paid as construction or like that. For same job they get same pay.

    – Did you know, Onkko, that Finland was one of the first counties in the world(?)/Europe to pass the far-reaching Equality Act/Yhteisvertaisuuslaki.

    Yes i do know and multiculturalism is against that. Multiculturalism is like 100m run where white beefeating straight man starts on 90m line just to be “equal”.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 23, 2008 10:45 pm

      I disagree. Here is one out of many studies that show that there is gender discrimination when it comes to salaries.

      Suomessa naisten ja miesten palkkaerot ovat suuremmat kuin EU-maissa keskimäärin. EU:n tasa-arvoraportin mukaan eurooppalaiset naiset tienasivat vuonna 5 prosenttia vähemmän kuin miehet vuonna 2005. Suomessa eroa on kuitenkin lähes 20 prosenttia. Näin ollen naisen euro pysyttelee sitkeästi 80 sentissä.

      Source: http://www.unifem.fi/naiset_ja_tyoelama.php

      Come on, Onkko. You know that it isn’t that way. Finns have a big head start at the start line.

  11. intternetnetsi permalink
    December 24, 2008 12:32 pm

    Bullshit again. Womans work like nurses and such and there pay isnt good. Mans work in areas what produce so they have better pay, and same time pay for womans salaries in non producing areas.

    There isnt unequality on salaries just different workplaces, womans dont commonly work e.g. as blumber but instead they work as nurse. Also making childrens affects on salary, it takes time from work experience what directly affects on salary.

    You have to look man and woman in same workplace with same responsibilies and you find that salary is same.

  12. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    December 24, 2008 1:00 pm

    I wouldn’t say that a “monoculture” is what I am looking for. I am looking for an equality based society with “one set of rules” for all. So like if you play football, you cannot take the ball and run with it in your armpit.

    If there comes people who don’t wish to “play ball” according to the rules then thats their problem and not the home teams problem really.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 24, 2008 3:03 pm

      If you do not explain the rules and that both sides agree on them as equals, then it makes it very difficult to play by any rules. We have one of the lowest amount of foreigners in the EU per capita and some are placing a whole bunch of obstacles and assuming that everything will be a failure. What is it that you fear?

  13. intternetnetsi permalink
    December 25, 2008 10:52 am

    -and that both sides agree on them as equals,

    There comes problem, i wont ever never agree with muslim values about freedom and rights of e.g. woman. And i refuse to “respect” their values. Do you know there is people dying because of “political correctness” and “respect” of their culture? Thats one i refuse to talk about as equal.

    -We have one of the lowest amount of foreigners in the EU per capita and some are placing a whole bunch of obstacles and assuming that everything will be a failure. What is it that you fear?

    Thank good for that and i fight to keep it like that. And what i fear? i fear riots like in malmo and all around and misuse “political correctness” to bash our culture and immoral demands of minorities. I fear womans dropping from balcony and mutilation of childs. Cultures arent equal.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q17z3UqLeHI there is some racism to you.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 25, 2008 11:17 pm

      Why is it Onkko that when you bring up the subject of immigration you normally bring its most darkest side. What about, whenever I speak about Finns, I talk badly about the culture, how people do this and that? That is a distortion and that is exactly what you do when you bring up a certain group of closed minded individuals.

      Do you fear riots in Mälmö or that there will be more competition for jobs and welfare services? Political correctness, as some have referred, goes a bit overboard. However, it is “correct” not to insult groups because of their culture. That has nothing to do with “political correctness” but common sense and how were were brought up in our homes to respect others.

  14. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    December 25, 2008 1:44 pm

    Yes Enrique, but its our field and our ball – and our rules. They’re there up on the table to be read – they’re not open for discussion.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 25, 2008 10:58 pm

      Then, DeTant, there is no game, or a game full of question marks, intrigue and inequality.

  15. intternetnetsi permalink
    December 26, 2008 3:14 pm

    -Why is it Onkko that when you bring up the subject of immigration you normally bring its most darkest side.

    Because i want bring balance, you and most of media only talk about how great they are and i bash that back because its a lie. There is unsolved problems what arent talked about and i dont want any troublemaker more in here. And some cultures are troublemakers like it or not.

    -Do you fear riots in Mälmö or that there will be more competition for jobs and welfare services?

    Problem is riots and so called “need of workers”, there is no need for workers only for cheap exploitable workforce what cannot fight back, no modern slavery i say. And no one else than finn dont have any right to felware services.
    And my job.. foreigner without fluent finnish cannot compere with it.

  16. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    December 27, 2008 10:07 am

    I do not respect people who throw their daughters off the balcony for the honor of their family.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 27, 2008 1:57 pm

      Neither do I. But I respect people that move to another country and want to improve their lives.

  17. intternetnetsi permalink
    December 28, 2008 6:52 pm

    -But I respect people that move to another country and want to improve their lives.

    I dont if that costs to host country, i call that leeching.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 28, 2008 7:04 pm

      -I dont if that costs to host country, i call that leeching.

      How can a person who wants to improve his life by working be a cost to the host country?

  18. intternetnetsi permalink
    December 28, 2008 7:59 pm

    .How can a person who wants to improve his life by working be a cost to the host country?

    By not having proper skills to get a job and bringing his clan with him. They just send “orphan” “child” and then theres suddently 15 relatives coming too. And all are of course willing to work.. Too bad if you skill is herd goat or chew chat and lack ability to read or write even your own language possibilies getting job isnt good.

    And then valid way somehow low paid worker brings few childs and wife, school to childs and wife + healtcare etc.
    I red study, it was from start to middle of 90s so not much work to do, that after 6 years average immigrant was almost free of cost to finland… so no richness..

    • Enrique permalink
      December 29, 2008 7:07 am

      This is ridiculous and demeaning. I guess you still have no clue why people move and migrate to countries. I guess other superpowers such as the US, and bigger economies such as Australia, Canada, Brazil have got it all wrong. Your problem is that you have a very lowly and simplistic view of immigrants. You believe they are a bunch of “goat-herders” who are unskilled. That kind of an attitude will not only bring you a healthy dose of ignorance but is hazardous to this society’s spiritual health.

  19. intternetnetsi permalink
    December 29, 2008 12:38 pm

    Thats not right, i have clear knowledge why people immigrate. I have seen people struggling with permission even when they had a job, but they arent enough multicultural. Read news how swedish immigrant wasnt “immigrant” enough to be noted when she got in as “kansanedustaja” but there were texts about no immigrant got thru. Look how polish jude is in goverment and still no “immigrant” in goverment..

    There are two types of immigrants and you probably know witch one is problem and what multiculturalism really means.

    And quess witch immigrant is multicultural.

    According to Vera Izrailit, who is finn (well not officially yet), Ulkomailla syntyneistä Suomen asukkaista 35% ovat syntyneet EU-maissa, 25% entisessä Neuvostoliitossa tai Venäjällä, ja 5% muissa teollisuusmaissa (Usa, Kanada, Norja, Japani, Israel, Australia, jne.).

    She is jude born in USSR fleed to USA and moved to here, she doesnt need multiculturalism. Ryssä mikä ryssä mutta kyllä siitä suomalainen tehtiin🙂 Look http://izrailit.blogspot.com/

    US, Australia and Canada haves apartheid laws and real segregation of people. Only way they still exists is because most of people are white european origin with european set of mind.
    And again all of those are build by immigrants destroying current inhabitants. Young countries.

    We probably see in next 40 years when some of european countries are majority muslims how things go but what it seems its sad.

    Again youre hopefull and i have facts, i really hope immigration is like you say but it isnt.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 31, 2008 7:32 am

      –According to Vera Izrailit, who is finn (well not officially yet), Ulkomailla syntyneistä Suomen asukkaista 35% ovat syntyneet EU-maissa, 25% entisessä Neuvostoliitossa tai Venäjällä, ja 5% muissa teollisuusmaissa (Usa, Kanada, Norja, Japani, Israel, Australia, jne.).

      This is interesting. Does she say from which source she got this information?

      –US, Australia and Canada haves apartheid laws and real segregation of people.

      In order to use the term “apartheid” you really have to know what it means. I would not classify these countries as “practicing” apartheid.

      –We probably see in next 40 years when some of european countries are majority muslims how things go but what it seems its sad.

      I think you are exaggerating.

  20. intternetnetsi permalink
    December 29, 2008 12:53 pm

    I forgot to invite you in new forum http://hommaforum.org/ what is just few weeks old but we need your view also.

  21. intternetnetsi permalink
    December 29, 2008 1:00 pm

    And i also forgot to tell you about http://www.teolinst.fi/j/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=92:15-islam-ja-evankeliumi&catid=72:netissae-olevat-iustitiat&Itemid=93

    Thats written by cristian but atleast you cant say he wont know what he is talking about🙂

    • Enrique permalink
      December 31, 2008 7:33 am

      Thank you for the links.

  22. Tiwaz permalink
    December 31, 2008 8:32 am

    -Neither do I. But I respect people that move to another country and want to improve their lives.

    I do not. Moving from your multicultural hellhole to this stable, prosperous nation does not give you right to ANYTHING. As you are yet to prove yourself as person contributing to this society.

    And if you do not play the ball according to OUR, native and established, rules… You are not contributing anything but problems. Thus, you adapting to our culture is first step of earning respect. Getting your ass to Finland is not.

    -This is ridiculous and demeaning. I guess you still have no clue why people move and migrate to countries. I guess other superpowers such as the US, and bigger economies such as Australia, Canada, Brazil have got it all wrong. Your problem is that you have a very lowly and simplistic view of immigrants. You believe they are a bunch of “goat-herders” who are unskilled. That kind of an attitude will not only bring you a healthy dose of ignorance but is hazardous to this society’s spiritual health.

    Brazil? Superpower? Large economy? BS! Their GDP is below 10 000 USD.
    They have large economy only because their country is huge.

    As for others, they have insane stability and crime issues DUE to failure to integrate everyone to single set of values and principles. Malmö riots, Paris riots, USA race riots, Australia gang rapes, Canada is starting to experience them as well as crime climbs.

    Anywhere where people do not adhere to single set of rules, there is chaos and destruction.

    As for changing the rules or negotiating them with immigrants…

    Why? What makes YOU worthy to tell us NATIVES how to live in our country? If you can’t live in our country by our rules. Fuck off!

    If we start changing the country to fit your ungrateful immigrant ass, we change it to something we are not comfortable to live in. And we want to be able to say that we enjoy living in our native country. Because it is our native country, it is only country in the world where we can call ourselves natives. It is only country with this particular culture.

    If we change it to fit your ungrateful immigrant ass, there is no more Finland.

    We may, and that is may, adopt some influences from your culture. But WE, natives, decide what is worthy to be added. Not you. And we only add it if it fits our existinc culture.

    Latest wave of various christmas fads has lots of foreign influences. But most of those are just that, fads. They come and go. Only ones which fit EXISTING Finnish culture have any hope to be added to Finnish culture.

  23. December 31, 2008 9:55 am

    Enrique: “–According to Vera Izrailit, who is finn (well not officially yet), Ulkomailla syntyneistä Suomen asukkaista 35% ovat syntyneet EU-maissa, 25% entisessä Neuvostoliitossa tai Venäjällä, ja 5% muissa teollisuusmaissa (Usa, Kanada, Norja, Japani, Israel, Australia, jne.).

    This is interesting. Does she say from which source she got this information?”

    The source is Tilastokeskus.

    http://pxweb2.stat.fi/database/StatFin/vrm/vaerak/vaerak_fi.asp and from there the table “Syntymävaltio iän ja sukupuolen mukaan maakunnittain 1990 – 2007”

    • Enrique permalink
      December 31, 2008 1:12 pm

      Hi Vera, congratulations on your neat blog. Many have spoken of it in Migrant Tales. Thank you for sending the link.
      Happy New Year!

  24. intternetnetsi permalink
    December 31, 2008 7:13 pm

    -In order to use the term “apartheid” you really have to know what it means. I would not classify these countries as “practicing” apartheid.

    Apartheid is racial/cultural segregation and that happens there and bit in finland too.

    Kas Veera meiä oma ryssä tuli tänne🙂
    Tervetuloa🙂

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