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Finnish identity in the new century

December 16, 2008

Since humankind does not still have one flag to rally all the peoples of the world, until that time I hope that it will be the Finnish flag that will wave over this land.

Ever since Finnish independence in 1917, Finns have been forging a sense of national identity. The same tools we used in the previous century to build our national identity have come into conflict with people who do not fit the Elovena-woman prototype on the box of a popular Finnish porridge brand.

In the process of forging a national identity, we created a narrower view of who was entitled to be called a Finn. The dual-citizenship act of 2003 was one of the most important laws that changed matters and opened up the Finnish-identity playing field. Another important right worth mentioning that came into force in the 1980s, was when women were given the right to pass on Finnish citizenship to their foreign-born children.

In my opinion, a Finn is a person who feels he/she is from this land in his/her diverse way. This may include an endless combination of religions, ethnicities, and cultures. To single out people and exclude them from their identity is one of the worse forms of discrimination. It is the same thing that white Americans did to blacks and other minorities before the civil rights movement of the 1950s and 1960s. They were “Americans” but they were first and foremost blacks.

When a Finn states that a member of this society must accept Finnish values and customs in order to be accepted, what is he/she actually saying? The message is clear – we do not accept your diversity.

Due to the hundreds of thousands of Finns that migrated from this country in the past century, and the fact that more people are immigrating to Finland, it is clear that we have forged alongside the “official” view of Finnish identity another unofficial one.

Laws like dual citizenship and the equality act are important watersheds that allow our diverse Finnish identities to flourish and be defended by law in this country. A multiethnical Finland should not be seen as a threat, but as an opportunity for this country.

One matter is for certain. It will be the new bold face of Finland during this century.

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45 Comments leave one →
  1. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    December 16, 2008 3:15 pm

    I’d think the “National Identity” thing is much older than that. You could look into the 1860’s as sparking the movement with Finnish as a literary language and Lönnrot looking for Kalevala. Basically the strongest “national Identity” moivet grew at its strongest in 1890’s partially in opposition to the Russification laws. The highest point was the early 1900’s National Romanticism and say the pavillion at the Paris World Fair in 1900. So I’d say the “national Identity” was already been formed a long time before 1917.

    And mothers have always had the right to pass their Finnish citizenship to their children – born in Finland or other places. The 1941 law stated that a woman marrying a foreigner would loose her citizenship. The 1968 law then again states that a child gets the mother’d Finnish citizenship unless the child at birth gets some other country’s citizenship. It was pretty male-oriented back then. Only the 2003 law allows dual citizenship.

  2. Tiwaz permalink
    December 17, 2008 6:20 am

    -A multiethnical Finland should not be seen as a threat, but as an opportunity for this country.

    Why should system which has proven to be able to only bring poverty, misery, sergregation and conflict be seen as opportunity?

    To YOU, foreigner, it is of course opportunity. Opportunity to destroy society which works. Opportunity to force your foreign ways upon natives, like your ancestors did in Argentina Enrique.

    Killed, slaughtered and pushed away the natives.

    Study history of:
    The Aymara Indians
    The Guarani Indians
    The Mapuche Indians
    The Ona (Selknam) Indians
    The Puelche Indians
    The Quechua Indians
    The Tehuelche Indians
    The Vilela Indians

    All had their culture wiped out by foreigners coming to their country. Their society, in worst case their life as well.

    And now you, descendant of those well recorded oppressors, come to Finland and tell that we must accept your culture in OUR country as equal to yours.
    What? You did not have enough guns to come and just force us to abandon our culture?

    -When a Finn states that a member of this society must accept Finnish values and customs in order to be accepted, what is he/she actually saying? The message is clear – we do not accept your diversity.

    Yes, it is clear message. “We are natives of Finland. Have been for ages, beyond reach of current history. it is OUR country. In our country, we expect you to respect OUR culture.”

    YOU came to this country, out of your own free will. Finland did not come to you. So it is sign of immense arrogance to come and presume you have any right to tell us Finns how life should be in our country.

    There is no “two way road”. That is just another pathetic attempt to force your ways upon us. Trying to barter with natives to have us start giving up bits and pieces of our culture.

    This is Finland. Accept that, accept that here things go according to Finnish culture and you will prosper. Try to fight it, and all you bring is misery for yourself and others. And if you keep up long enough, you will turn Finns against you so badly, that it can end up with bloodshed.

    And, since you did not have guns to force us to accept your culture, you do not have guns to survive such uprising either. You are, in fact, hurting those immigrants who only want to integrate to Finland and live happily in this peaceful, stable and prosperous country. Many of whom do not wish to import your multicultural failure to destroy even this bastion of peace and quiet.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 17, 2008 9:26 am

      The Amerindians you mention have not all died off. The Aymara, for example, are a large minority in Bolivia. The Onas, however, of Tierra del Fuego do not exist. Immigration to Argentina was principally done by Spaniards and Italians. So you better point the finger on the Mediterranean countries. Multiculturalism as a policy aims to avoid such social calamities.

  3. jaakkeli permalink
    December 17, 2008 7:02 am

    In my opinion, a Finn is a person who feels he/she is from this land in his/her diverse way.

    I’ve known plenty of foreigners of very diverse backgrounds who get accepted as honorary Finns. You know what’s common among them? NONE OF THEM CAMPAIGN FOR ACCEPTANCE! They just happen to like things here and act like it. If you don’t like it here, you don’t have to be here.

    Nations are not that different from social circles. You don’t get into a social circle by screaming that being excluded is evil. You can’t make any friends by going around and calling people nasty and discriminating if they don’t want to hang out with you. If you’re starting off with demands, all you’re ever going to get from anyone is a simple “f*** o**”.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 17, 2008 9:35 am

      Why are you so against somebody airing an opinion on a real social issue in Finland? Read history and look at, for example, the civil rights movement in the US. Do you think that there would have been changes if people such as the late Martin Luther King would have sought “acceptance” instead of marched and championed for civil rights? What about Gandhi in India? Possibly his tactics were wrong. Maybe he should have sat and drank tea with the British and asked for acceptance. What about people such as Eugene Schauman? Did he go off his rocker when he assassinated Bobrikov? Should the Finns have waited for acceptance and behaved as model citizens with the Russians in order to get independence?

  4. jaakkeli permalink
    December 17, 2008 9:56 am

    Enrique, we DEFINITELY need a civil rights movement in Finland. End to foreigner privileges in jobs, end to foreigner privileges in health care, end to non-deportation of criminals, end to non-punishment on crime when you can appeal to “culture”, end to segregation… one of these days I’m going to gather up my nationalist buddies and start storming “Muslim-only” events. I’ll be the modern Rosa Parks!

    Your examples are bullshit. Foreigners are a privileged class in Finland. (If you don’t think so, I’ll educate you on the specifics.) I have nothing against foreigners who do not support the way things are and especially the way things are going, just as Martin Luther King didn’t have issues with whites who didn’t support segregation, just as Gandhi didn’t hate the British, just as… but if you support multiculturalism, you should get the f*** o** of Finland NOW because if this goes on it’s going to get violent SOON.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 17, 2008 10:10 am

      Yes, lowering social welfare across the board would force politicians and policy makers to address the real issues facing this society.
      Nah, I am not going to leave anywhere. You are another one that fell asleep in civics class. Is that what the Nordic welfare model taught you — to threaten people who think differently and storm Muslim gatherings? In the US they used to lynch black people. There is a great song called “Strange Fruit” by Billie Holiday. I strongly recommend that you stop with your threats. They undermine the credibility of your arguments.

  5. jaakkeli permalink
    December 17, 2008 10:41 am

    So, you’re unwilling to discuss the issue?

    Notice that in all those cases you mentioned things eventually did get violent. There wasn’t just MLK, there were also those who were less into non-violence. There’s no threat: there’s only the simple fact that if you tell people that they are disqualified from jobs if they are of a certain ethnicity, that some other ethnicies go before them in hospitals and so on, those people are going to get massively pissed off, many of them violently so. Meanwhile, these privileged people are massively overrepresented in violence and sex crime. It’s a recipe for disaster. What do we do? Because of multiculturalism, we do nothing and we can’t even discuss it, so we’re just going to wait until it all blows up.

    We should disrupt Muslim attempts at gender segregation, against the law if we have to (but not violently), since they’re at the heart of the clash of cultures making it impossible for us to live together. In case you haven’t noticed, one of the reasons why Finns hate foreigners so much is their staggering overrepresentation in rape cases, including some types of rape that Finns just won’t do (extremely violent gang rapes, rapes involving genital mutilation etc). Muslims, when asked, seem to be rarely at all concerned about any of that. “Finnish women walk around with their heads uncovered, what do they expect?” It’s all because of their attitudes on women and it will never change unless we force them to change.

    If the authorities continue to do nothing (following the usual “multiculturalism” where such things are just declared a part of their “culture” that we can’t touch), it’s going to look something like this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Cronulla_riots

    • Enrique permalink
      December 17, 2008 12:33 pm

      –So, you’re unwilling to discuss the issue?

      I am willing to discuss all the issues with you. However, I am not going to label a whole group as rapists because this is crime. In a country where there is generally about 20% unemployment among foreigners, I would not consider this fact as “achieving the Finnish dream.” It is achieving ethnic exclusion from society. I believe that all people from ALL cultures want to be members of society. This, however, does not happen. One of the most important things is being employed. Being on the dole means you just don’t cut the grade. You are an outsider and suffer the wrath of being excluded.

      –In case you haven’t noticed, one of the reasons why Finns hate foreigners so much is their staggering overrepresentation in rape cases, including some types of rape that Finns just won’t do (extremely violent gang rapes, rapes involving genital mutilation etc).

      Raping any person is a aberration. We have the law to deal with such people. However, are ALL Muslims potential rapists? If we look at a recent tragic case in Seinjäjoki, should we generalize and say that all Finns are gun-totting murderers? Of course not. The rape issue is something that must be addressed forcefully and with the full weight of the law. It has no place in our society like murdering other people.

      There are things we can touch irrespective of cultural differences. Things such as murder, discrimination, mutilation etc are enshrined in the UN Declaration of Human Rights signed by Finland and our Equality Act. Think about it. We have so few foreigners in this country and we are willing to pass laws that protect them from social ills. That, I think, is very noble and shows something good in Finland. On the other hand, we could be resigned and exclude others because “we were wronged in the previous century” as our history reveals.

  6. jaakkeli permalink
    December 17, 2008 8:54 pm

    I’ve been unemployed. I find the whole idea of explaining rapes and violent crime with unemployment *deeply* offensive. When you’re hungry, you’re tempted by the easy money that could come out of stealing, growing marijuana and such, but it does not make me want to rape or beat up anyone. I can understand and tolerate it if people who come from poor countries end up overrepresented in theft, but not rapes. And it’s not even true that people who come from poorer countries are overrepresented in rape – it’s Africans and Middle Easterners, not Chinese or Chileans.

    I believe that all people from ALL cultures want to be members of society.

    Like those guys with “ISLAM WILL DOMINATE THE WORLD!” banners in demonstrations? Like those Muslims who keep killing their daughters for dating Western men? Give me a break.

    If we look at a recent tragic case in Seinjäjoki, should we generalize and say that all Finns are gun-totting murderers?

    We should *definitely* conclude that there’s something wrong with Finnish culture. We, for example, have a way too lax attitude on guns, inherited from a different era when guns were not such a problem because of lack of access and rural social controls. I don’t support total bans, but very young people and people with known mental problems should only get to use guns with supervision. Another issue is that Finnish schools traditionally have had problems taking bullying seriously. A third issue, which is getting curiously little press because it’s slightly taboo, is the rather likely sexual frustrations of these shooters: a shy, bullied young man is just branded a sexual loser in modern culture and there’s no one to help out. We should definitely think of including some sort of social skills training in Finnish schools.

    We *can* do a lot about that if we discuss the issues first. Even the government is actually doing something because there have been many cases and the opposition can batter them in the next elections with this if they do nothing. That would not happen if the entire matter was too taboo to discuss.

    Similarily, we should analyze just what’s wrong with Muslim culture and work on that… but we can’t, because it’s too taboo to judge other people’s culture, so we’re stuck discussing how FINNS have to change to accomodate Muslims. If only we apologize for Danish cartoons one more time, maybe the gang rapes will then stop. (Nasty? Bigoted? But that’s the way we really think!) If the government refuses to protect us, then a time will come to take matters in our own hands. Immigrants should try to confront these issues, not support multiculturalist taboos that lead us to muffled hatred, because once a race riot breaks out it really won’t matter whether you’re good or bad, all that matters is whether you look foreign or not.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 18, 2008 6:15 am

      –I’ve been unemployed. I find the whole idea of explaining rapes and violent crime with unemployment *deeply* offensive.

      I did not correlate the two. Don’t be so hypersensitive.

      –Like those guys with “ISLAM WILL DOMINATE THE WORLD!” banners in demonstrations? Like those Muslims who keep killing their daughters for dating Western men? Give me a break.

      The problem with your argument is that you place all people from a certain religion into one bag. There are things that may shock and be unacceptable from our cultural point of view. On the other side of the coin, there must be things in our culture that may shock other religions. Even so, we should not generalize and go on the rampage. Cultures, nations, societies comprise in the end of individuals.

      –We should *definitely* conclude that there’s something wrong with Finnish culture. We, for example, have a way too lax attitude on guns, inherited from a different era when guns were not such a problem because of lack of access and rural social controls.

      I totally agree. The process of creating a better society is a never-ending task.

      –Similarily, we should analyze just what’s wrong with Muslim culture and work on that… but we can’t, because it’s too taboo to judge other people’s culture, so we’re stuck discussing how FINNS have to change to accomodate Muslims.

      I would rephrase your comment the following way: “…we should allow the weight of the law to fall on any individual that rapes and get to the bottom of this social problem with members of cultures where such crimes are higher than the per-capita national average.” I think you got the wrong idea. The authorities do and must act forcefully against rapists irrespective of their cultural background. However, we cannot condemn a whole group because some of its members have pathological problems.

      Race riot? Do you really think that something like that could happen in Finland today?

  7. Tiwaz permalink
    December 18, 2008 6:01 am

    -The Amerindians you mention have not all died off. The Aymara, for example, are a large minority in Bolivia. The Onas, however, of Tierra del Fuego do not exist. Immigration to Argentina was principally done by Spaniards and Italians. So you better point the finger on the Mediterranean countries. Multiculturalism as a policy aims to avoid such social calamities.

    Oh, but how much of their culture and society is left?

    And those spaniards and italians are YOUR ancestors. Destroying other cultures and societies appears to run in your blood. You wiped out amerindians, now you want to wipe out Finns.

    Multiculturalism has NEVER worked anywhere. It as policy DOES NOT FUCKING WORK.
    Show me WORKING, DEVELOPED, UNDIVIDED, STABLE, LOW CRIME and NO CULTURAL CONFLICT multicultural society and I might give you more credibility.

    But as it is, you repeat your multiculturalism mantra like religious fanatic, refusing to accept that it has not worked anywhere in developed world. It only, to limit, works in underdeveloped world because people are too busy scraping together living. And doesn’t work even there, as we see with plethora of cases like Rwanda, Iraq etc.

    -I am willing to discuss all the issues with you. However, I am not going to label a whole group as rapists because this is crime. In a country where there is generally about 20% unemployment among foreigners, I would not consider this fact as “achieving the Finnish dream.” It is achieving ethnic exclusion from society. I believe that all people from ALL cultures want to be members of society. This, however, does not happen. One of the most important things is being employed. Being on the dole means you just don’t cut the grade. You are an outsider and suffer the wrath of being excluded.

    Tell me i***, DOES RAPING GET YOU A JOB? DOES RAPING GET YOU MONEY?

    Saying that it is because they are unemployed or poor is just trying to excuse their actions. YOU ARE DEFENDING RAPISTS ENRIQUE! And you say I am nazi when I say jewish separation from German society was greatly reason for their unfortunate fate.

    Getting employed is achieved by showing you are part of society. Integrate to society and culture, that way you get job. You do not get job first, because you do not act and speak in a way that makes people want to hire you.

    -Raping any person is a aberration. We have the law to deal with such people. However, are ALL Muslims potential rapists? If we look at a recent tragic case in Seinjäjoki, should we generalize and say that all Finns are gun-totting murderers? Of course not. The rape issue is something that must be addressed forcefully and with the full weight of the law. It has no place in our society like murdering other people.

    TWO loonies out of 5 million people went to school. That is something like… Less than promille of total population.

    2% (if we are generous) of people, muslims, are responsible for 10-20% of rapes in Finland.
    Of course there is nothing worng with this! No, because they are immigrants Enrique rushes to defend them. Evil Finns, daring to say that there is something wrong with muslim culture! Of course there is nothing wrong with muslim culture, Enriques multiculturalism fixes everything. All there has to be done is Finns to dress up in burkha and start acting like muslim culture demands and all problems go away!

    -There are things we can touch irrespective of cultural differences. Things such as murder, discrimination, mutilation etc are enshrined in the UN Declaration of Human Rights signed by Finland and our Equality Act. Think about it. We have so few foreigners in this country and we are willing to pass laws that protect them from social ills. That, I think, is very noble and shows something good in Finland. On the other hand, we could be resigned and exclude others because “we were wronged in the previous century” as our history reveals.

    No, i**** foreigner. We Finns just are not touchyfeelyhuggy hippies. We do not seek contact with others.

    But we DO treat foreigners equally, what is wrong is that you immigrants refuse to accept Finnish culture and Finnish society belonging to Finland and being the way things are done in Finland. You demand that we must appease your cultural norms. And when you little idiots are judged and treated by Finnish standards, standards of this country, you whine racism.

    You are not treated unequally, you are treated like anyone who does not speak Finnish or act properly according to Finnish cultural norms would be treated. It does not matter where you were born and to what parents. Or even what your passport says.

    Learn to speak and behave, and behold how whole country opens up to you! Because you were not lazy, arrogant idiot who demands that Finns have to adjust their society to you.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 18, 2008 6:34 am

      –Oh, but how much of their culture and society is left?

      It is impossible that any culture remains in an ideal time warp for others to marvel. Spanish conquistadors were responsible for the mass and slow destruction of Amerindians. I believe the last Ona died in the 1960s. It is an interesting question when you become the “last” linguistic member of your group. Does it happen when you die or are the last living relic with nobody to talk to?

      –Tell me i***, DOES RAPING GET YOU A JOB? DOES RAPING GET YOU MONEY?

      This is a bit extreme, don’t you think? Your problem is that you refuse to look at people in a group as individuals. There are all types in every group. Stop generalizing.

      –But we DO treat foreigners equally, what is wrong is that you immigrants refuse to accept Finnish culture and Finnish society belonging to Finland and being the way things are done in Finland. You demand that we must appease your cultural norms. And when you little idiots are judged and treated by Finnish standards, standards of this country, you whine racism.

      As long as stereotypes dominate and are the rule as opposed to the exception, you will never build a society of equals. However, there are laws passed (Integration, dual citizenship, Equality Act, Constitution) that strive to create a society comprising of equals. One of the rights in such a society is keeping your identity and respect for yours and others cultures. I do not see any “appeasement” in this. This is the law, it is sensible and effective method of integration (I did not state assimilation nor acculturation).

      If you think about it, these laws and aims I mentioned are noble, bold and prove that all cultures living in Finland can prosper and create a successful society.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 18, 2008 6:34 am

      –Oh, but how much of their culture and society is left?

      It is impossible that any culture remains in an ideal time warp for others to marvel. Spanish conquistadors were responsible for the mass and slow destruction of Amerindians. I believe the last Ona died in the 1960s. It is an interesting question when you become the “last” linguistic member of your group. Does it happen when you die or are the last living relic with nobody to talk to?

      –Tell me i***, DOES RAPING GET YOU A JOB? DOES RAPING GET YOU MONEY?

      This is a bit extreme, don’t you think? Your problem is that you refuse to look at people in a group as individuals. There are all types in every group. Stop generalizing.

      –But we DO treat foreigners equally, what is wrong is that you immigrants refuse to accept Finnish culture and Finnish society belonging to Finland and being the way things are done in Finland. You demand that we must appease your cultural norms. And when you little idiots are judged and treated by Finnish standards, standards of this country, you whine racism.

      As long as stereotypes dominate and are the rule as opposed to the exception, you will never build a society of equals. However, there are laws passed (Integration, dual citizenship, Equality Act, Constitution) that strive to create a society comprising of equals. One of the rights in such a society is keeping your identity and respect for yours and others cultures. I do not see any “appeasement” in this. This is the law, it is sensible and effective method of integration (I did not state assimilation nor acculturation).

      If you think about it, these laws and aims I mentioned are noble, bold and prove that all cultures living in Finland can prosper and create a successful society.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 18, 2008 6:37 am

      –Saying that it is because they are unemployed or poor is just trying to excuse their actions. YOU ARE DEFENDING RAPISTS ENRIQUE! And you say I am nazi when I say jewish separation from German society was greatly reason for their unfortunate fate.

      Your comments sometimes amaze me. They are totally off the wall.

  8. Tiwaz permalink
    December 18, 2008 6:06 am

    -Why are you so against somebody airing an opinion on a real social issue in Finland? Read history and look at, for example, the civil rights movement in the US. Do you think that there would have been changes if people such as the late Martin Luther King would have sought “acceptance” instead of marched and championed for civil rights? What about Gandhi in India? Possibly his tactics were wrong. Maybe he should have sat and drank tea with the British and asked for acceptance. What about people such as Eugene Schauman? Did he go off his rocker when he assassinated Bobrikov? Should the Finns have waited for acceptance and behaved as model citizens with the Russians in order to get independence?

    Because what you see as social issue is FINNISH CULTURE AND SOCIETY!

    You are trying to kill our culture and society and expect us to go along. You are not Martin Luther King, you are fucking Hernan Cortez. Your goal is not equal rights, those you already have if you bother to do some work to integrate to society, your goal is destruction of Finland.

    And you expect us to roll over and die. Sorry, these Aztecs do not see you as god. We have our culture, our society and our country because Finns fought for it. And we are NOT going to let some Argentinian come and destroy it because he is too lazy or stupid to accept integrating to another society.

    See how well things turned out for Aztecs when they started appeasing Cortez.
    Or how nicely things turned out when western powers appeased Hitler.
    Or how Baltic states turned out when they started handing their country to foreigners.

  9. jaakkeli permalink
    December 18, 2008 7:23 am

    The problem with your argument is that you place all people from a certain religion into one bag. There are things that may shock and be unacceptable from our cultural point of view. On the other side of the coin, there must be things in our culture that may shock other religions.

    Well, duh. But you don’t see drunken Finns fighting over sausage stand lines in Saudi Arabia. You know why? BECAUSE THEY DON’T ALLOW ANY OF IT OVER THERE!

    Even so, we should not generalize and go on the rampage.

    Rubbish. All social progress starts with generalizations. As long as you only talk about individuals, you can’t actually do any social politics – you’re stuck being a libertarian and I take it that you’re not a libertarian.

    For example, I generalized a lot about Finns:

    –We should *definitely* conclude that there’s something wrong with Finnish culture. We, for example, have a way too lax attitude on guns, inherited from a different era when guns were not such a problem because of lack of access and rural social controls.

    And you agreed:

    I totally agree. The process of creating a better society is a never-ending task.

    But then, again, when talking about Muslims we can’t “generalize”. We can say that Finns have a lax attitude on guns (even when obviously not all do) but we can’t say obvious things such as most Muslims have very different ideas on sexuality (even when obviously not all share the same views).

    I would rephrase your comment the following way: “…we should allow the weight of the law to fall on any individual that rapes and get to the bottom of this social problem

    No, no, no! We should work on prevention and we work on prevention by identifying a problem and attacking it. We should discuss why school shootings happen and what to do to prevent them, instead of babbling nonsense about letting the law deal with such issues when they happen. I don’t believe that there’s some genetic reason why Muslims should be overrepresented in rapists. It’s culture and it can change. We should work on that. (If we can’t work on it, then we simply shouldn’t take Muslims.)

    with members of cultures where such crimes are higher than the per-capita national average.” I think you got the wrong idea. The authorities do and must act forcefully against rapists irrespective of their cultural background.

    Well, that would go off topic, but no, they don’t. Do you realize that you live in a country where even raping an 8-year-old often doesn’t mean that you actually go to prison? A country where we have serial killers and rapists not because we can’t catch them but because we catch and release them? There are people who have raped a kid, gone to prison for it, raped a kid, gone to prison for it, raped a kid, gone to prison for it, raped, gone to prison for it, raped and killed, gone to prison for it AND they still go free again.

    Race riot? Do you really think that something like that could happen in Finland today?

    When I was a kid, over ten years ago, after a brutal murder of a teenage girl by a Somali who had already raped a teenager, some of the local older guys were walking around Tampere looking for a black to kill in retaliation. I don’t know if they would’ve done it, but a lone black certainly would’ve been beaten badly. Back then there were few there, though, and they went hiding, so they never actually found one…

    It’s much worse now. All we need is a trigger event. That’s why they cover up immigrant criminality in the press.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 18, 2008 8:28 am

      –Rubbish. All social progress starts with generalizations. As long as you only talk about individuals, you can’t actually do any social politics – you’re stuck being a libertarian and I take it that you’re not a libertarian.

      So you are saying that we should generalize and stereotype groups in order to get to the root of the problem. This method only makes you look at the wrong places for the cause.

      –Do you realize that you live in a country where even raping an 8-year-old often doesn’t mean that you actually go to prison? A country where we have serial killers and rapists not because we can’t catch them but because we catch and release them?

      I hear you loud and clear. The problem is in the legal system. If you want something worse, look at the legal system in Spain. Any person who lives in this society should know that it is based on equality and that women’s rights forms an important part of that.

      –When I was a kid, over ten years ago, after a brutal murder of a teenage girl by a Somali who had already raped a teenager, some of the local older guys were walking around Tampere looking for a black to kill in retaliation.

      That would not have solved anything. Taking the law in your hands is a poor way of handing down justice. Don’t you believe in the Finnish legal system? Did they ever catch the alleged rapist?

      –It’s much worse now. All we need is a trigger event. That’s why they cover up immigrant criminality in the press.

      I semi-agree with you. I think the mainstream media does not report on the real problems of foreigners face in this country. It is, as you know, a juicy subject that catches people’s attention.

  10. Tiwaz permalink
    December 18, 2008 10:10 am

    -It is impossible that any culture remains in an ideal time warp for others to marvel. Spanish conquistadors were responsible for the mass and slow destruction of Amerindians. I believe the last Ona died in the 1960s. It is an interesting question when you become the “last” linguistic member of your group. Does it happen when you die or are the last living relic with nobody to talk to?

    But do they have anything left? Hmm? Have they been wiped out totally, having culture of foreigners replace what their ancestors had… Yes.

    And it is interesting question indeed. You want to kill us Finns. Throw our language and culture down, replace it with foreign ones. And then you tell to us that it is somehow for our betterment.

    I have said this many times, but it sums up my feelings for your “betterment” so well.

    F*** off.

    -This is a bit extreme, don’t you think? Your problem is that you refuse to look at people in a group as individuals. There are all types in every group. Stop generalizing.

    You are true imbecile. Your problem is that you are stuck with individuals. That is pointless. What is important here are trends and habits of group as whole.

    Muslim group as whole has serious issue of having EXTREMELY high statistical raperate.

    You of course want to whitewash it by looking at them as individuals, I do not care about them as individuals. As group they rape way above their statistical percentage.

    -As long as stereotypes dominate and are the rule as opposed to the exception, you will never build a society of equals. However, there are laws passed (Integration, dual citizenship, Equality Act, Constitution) that strive to create a society comprising of equals. One of the rights in such a society is keeping your identity and respect for yours and others cultures. I do not see any “appeasement” in this. This is the law, it is sensible and effective method of integration (I did not state assimilation nor acculturation).

    Stop whining foreigner! You demand appeasement, you demand that you must have same footing as native Finn when competing for a job when you lack same skills.
    You demand PREFERENTIAL treatment.

    If you do not speak Finnish or can’t act like Finn. How could you be equal in interview? Finns speak English just fine. So hiring Finn gets someone who speaks English AND Finnish fluently. And who fits in his enviroment just fine without need to change that enviroment.

    It is you foreigner idiots who demand jobs without skills who are racists. You think you are better than Finns, that you are so much superior that you should not be required to have fundamental skills on interaction with natives in native terms.

    You are arrogant, lazy and racist foreigner supremacists.

    You foreigners do not show proper respect for Finnish culture and language by refusing to learn them. We expect you to respect those when you deal with us, but you racist a***** just tell we are racist to want to speak our language and act according to our cultural norms in OUR COUNTRY.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 18, 2008 10:34 am

      No comment. I will leave that for the readers to judge what you have said. I really think the issue here is an inferiority complex coupled with an over-inflated view of yourself.

      Certainly we have to look at the group as a whole. However, we should not end up generalizing, labeling and excluding them. That, Tiwaz, is what led to the destruction of indigenous group around the world. You are using the same arguments and attitudes.

  11. Tiwaz permalink
    December 18, 2008 11:08 am

    No, I am using logic. Muslims represent 2% of population. Muslims are responsible for 10-20% of rapes.

    There is nothing unclear about situation, there is something vastly wrong in muslim culture.
    You can’t put it on unemployment, you can’t put it on poverty.

    Finns are poor too, Finns are unemployed. Yet Finns do not comming 5-10 times the amount of rapes they do. So it is cultural issue. Something is wrong with muslim culture. And either they fix it themselves, or we have to fix it for them. Right now they are not doing anything, and Finns have not yet run out of patience to solve the issue for them.

    I have no inferiority complex, and if anyone has over-inflated view of themselves… It is you immigrants.

    YOU are the arrogant idiots who come to foreign country and presume you have some kind of right to start tell natives how they should live.

    I have NEVER in my travels done that, I respect native culture and native ways. I put great effort to trying to avoid their values and principles.

    You arrogant idiots with your excessive ego and huge assumptions of your excellence come here, to my home, and start telling what I do wrong and how I should bow down to your ways. And how it is unfair to judge you, in my home, according to my culture.

    Does your arrogance know no limits?

  12. Calculator Man permalink
    December 19, 2008 12:37 pm

    Maybe because you have never traveled longer than 1 weekend to another place.
    And by the way, you are not representing Finland and there are other Finns who think different than you. Or are you the President of Finland? Guess not…

  13. Tiwaz permalink
    December 19, 2008 3:36 pm

    How do you know that?

    I have travelled quite much. And spoken to others who have travelled much.
    I seek to learn.

    You on the other hand, you are so arrogant in your feeling of supremacy that you think you can come to other countries to tell them how to live.

    I am representing majority of Finns by the way. Very few actually want to have anything to do with this multiculturalism.

    Most Finns want Finland to remain Finnish. And we expect foreigners to respect our culture. That means that you act like our culture tells here. It is considered basic politeness.

    We do not care about your identity, you are foreigners and will remain that way for rest of your days. But we expect you to obey OUR rules in OUR country.

  14. jaakkeli permalink
    December 19, 2008 4:05 pm

    So you are saying that we should generalize and stereotype groups in order to get to the root of the problem. This method only makes you look at the wrong places for the cause.

    Please tell me how we can even look at ANY place for the cause if we can’t “generalize” about Muslim culture.

    Here’s an example of a generalization of Muslim culture: Muslim women tend to cover their heads while not many non-Muslim women do. Not all Muslim women do it, but in Finland, only Muslim women do it. That’s a generalization and a stereotype. Did I just do something evil?

    Here’s another: Finns tend to like the sauna. Not all do and many non-Finns do, but still, it’s true. Another true generalization and stereotype. Did I just do something evil?

    –When I was a kid, over ten years ago, after a brutal murder of a teenage girl by a Somali who had already raped a teenager, some of the local older guys were walking around Tampere looking for a black to kill in retaliation.

    That would not have solved anything. Taking the law in your hands is a poor way of handing down justice. Don’t you believe in the Finnish legal system?

    After having seen enough people mugged, robbed and raped by foreigners and the authorities only interested in whether there’s “racism” by Finns involved… ABSOLUTELY NOT.

    It’s happening everywhere. This autumn, I spoke to a Danish tourist group and a few dudes – longhaired hippie musician types – told me they’ve joined the Hell’s Angels. The angels aren’t bound by “anti-racism” and they can actually deal with the immigrant gangs that the authorities refuse to touch. If they authorities surrender, we have to look for safety elsewhere.

    Did they ever catch the alleged rapist?

    You didn’t read well. The Somali man had raped a 13-year-old (at knifepoint) and the left-wing human rights organizations had blocked his deportation. Then he killed a 15-year-old girl in an extremely gruesome way with a knife. I was a kid then and all anyone was interested in was whether we’re turning “racist” rather than our worries (why aren’t these foreign rapists deported immediately?), so a lot of kids concluded that the authorities are more interested in protecting foreign child rapists and killers than Finnish kids and tried to take matters in their own hands.

    Back then I didn’t agree with it and I might have turned them in if they had actually killed someone. Today, I don’t know.

    BTW they let the guy out of prison a few years ago on an unsupervised vacation and he immediately raped an even smaller child. It also turns out that he’s been given Finnish citizenship. This is multiculturalism in a nutshell: rape or murder someone and you’ll end up with a team of lawyers and left-wing multicultural organizations on your side to fight a citizenship for you. Be nice and lawful and you’ll face the hostile bureaucracy alone. We simultaneously fight to keep the worst and to keep out the best.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 20, 2008 8:01 am

      –Here’s an example of a generalization of Muslim culture: Muslim women tend to cover their heads while not many non-Muslim women do. Not all Muslim women do it, but in Finland, only Muslim women do it. That’s a generalization and a stereotype. Did I just do something evil?

      What you are trying to do is group one religion into a general bag and make value judgments about them. You oversimplify a complex problem. There is, however, nothing complex about if a person commits a crime and is caught and sentenced to prison. Imagine if I were from the Middle East and saw Finns doing criminal things and then I would conclude: All EUROPEANS are this or that. It is totally ridiculous. Moreover, our laws are drafted to punish individuals NOT groups. And so what if some women wear scarfs or not? That’s what Finnish women did in the beginning of the last century. Women who did not wear scarfs in Finland back then were not seen in a favorable light.

      –It’s happening everywhere. This autumn, I spoke to a Danish tourist group and a few dudes – longhaired hippie musician types – told me they’ve joined the Hell’s Angels. The angels aren’t bound by “anti-racism” and they can actually deal with the immigrant gangs that the authorities refuse to touch. If they authorities surrender, we have to look for safety elsewhere.

      Again, you are generalizing and overstating matters. “It’s happening everywhere…” Where is everywhere?! Your perception of the “immigrant gangs that the authorities refuse to touch” is another overstatement/oversimplification of the situation. I am certain that the police effectively deal with crime in Finland but is it their fault if the laws are not tough enough for your taste?

      About the man who raped and killed. It is a terrible thing he did and he should answer for his crimes. However, I am not now going to form my opinion on all people from x country because there is such a sick person. What do you fear? Is it competition for jobs, welfare — what? Education? Family upbringing? If you write English as well as you do you must have some bicultural or multicultural background. So all this hostility is a bit fishy and maybe overblown behind the cloak of anonymity.

      –Be nice and lawful and you’ll face the hostile bureaucracy alone. We simultaneously fight to keep the worst and to keep out the best.

      I really don’t understand this hostility peppered with bravado (?) in your sentences. If you study them closely, they are armored with lots of hostility. Why? Do you live in such a “bad” country that you must rise up and use violence? Or are you another one that has never lived in a country where people are suffering from a civil war, total lack of human rights where armed struggle is sadly the ONLY answer to change things?

      • Enrique permalink
        December 20, 2008 8:24 am

        –The angels aren’t bound by “anti-racism” and they can actually deal with the immigrant gangs that the authorities refuse to touch. If they authorities surrender, we have to look for safety elsewhere.

        Yes, true, but they are bound by the law and their actions may be their one-way passport to prison. Please stop this type of threats and intimidation that some are ready to take justice in their hands… Is that what your privileged standard of living and education taught you at the end of the day?

  15. Tiwaz permalink
    December 20, 2008 10:31 am

    -What you are trying to do is group one religion into a general bag and make value judgments about them. You oversimplify a complex problem. There is, however, nothing complex about if a person commits a crime and is caught and sentenced to prison. Imagine if I were from the Middle East and saw Finns doing criminal things and then I would conclude: All EUROPEANS are this or that. It is totally ridiculous. Moreover, our laws are drafted to punish individuals NOT groups. And so what if some women wear scarfs or not? That’s what Finnish women did in the beginning of the last century. Women who did not wear scarfs in Finland back then were not seen in a favorable light.

    Issue is that muslims are WAY overrepresented in rape statistics. No amount of your defending them or whitewashing them will solve this issue.

    It is clear that there IS an issue with muslims. Your “law will handle it” is just the approach I would expect from pathetic multicultrualist. You try to close your eyes to problem, trying to silence it away.

    _I_ and FINNS want to PREVENT these issues. That means gettingn muslim community which produces these rapists to acknowledge that their cultural ways are not compatible with Finland. And that THEY must change their thinking.

    You and other multiculturalists trying to defend group which produces statistically incredible amount of rapists is not helping to fight the issue. When you tell them that they should stick to their foreign ways no matter what, you are increasing the problem.

    -Again, you are generalizing and overstating matters. “It’s happening everywhere…” Where is everywhere?! Your perception of the “immigrant gangs that the authorities refuse to touch” is another overstatement/oversimplification of the situation. I am certain that the police effectively deal with crime in Finland but is it their fault if the laws are not tough enough for your taste?

    No it is not oversimplification or overstatement. Your kind of multiculturalists scream bloody racism every time Finnish authorities try to crack on troublemaking cultural groups. As a result, they do not dare to do a thing to muslim rapists. That is a problem.

    Muslims must be made understand that in Finland, they have to live by FINNISH rules. Not try to import their own culture to Finland and pretend that they can live according to it no matter what. Because that is solution for conflict. That is what produces these rapists, their cultural norms which do not fit with Finnish society.

    THEY see woman who is not closed inside four walls and only getting out with escort, not to mention not being dressed in potato sack, as “uncovered meat” and free target for rape.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 20, 2008 1:48 pm

      –_I_ and FINNS want to PREVENT these issues.

      Certainly any person in Finland wants to nip crime in the bud. It is our civic duty. But what is your proposal? Kick out all the Muslims and commit human rights violations by not giving people the right to identify and practice their cultures? You are not very law-abiding. You sound more like a liability to Finnish society.

  16. Tiwaz permalink
    December 22, 2008 8:18 am

    -Certainly any person in Finland wants to nip crime in the bud. It is our civic duty. But what is your proposal? Kick out all the Muslims and commit human rights violations by not giving people the right to identify and practice their cultures? You are not very law-abiding. You sound more like a liability to Finnish society.

    Liability? Person who wants to preserve Finnish society as functional, stable and safe. YOU and your kin are the liability Enrique. You rail for idealism which has never worked. One that only brings conflict.

    How to solve the muslim rape issue? Quit all this nonsense about “multiculturalism”. And start cracking on foreign crime with less interest to political correctness and more concern for safety of Finns.

    Muslims commit crimes? Deport them and their family (since they can get sanctuary together, they should be deported together as well) to whatever hellhole they came from.
    Same for all foreigners. Deportation without asking what happens to them back at home.
    They chose to commit crime, they chose not to accept rules and ways of Finnish society. So it is their fault if they end up tormented at home.

    Your biggest issue Enrique, is that you are not a Finn. Every single one of your idealistic outbursts is based on what immigrants want or prefer. You NEVER give single thought to what FINNS want or prefer. You just expect Finns to eat up all the shit you would shovel our way.

    Wake up to reality, you immigrants are IRRELEVANT. You get only around 200 000 perhaps overall. If through some miracle every single immigrant disappeared from Finland, it would cause a dip and disturbance to society and services. But it would be temporary.

    If Finns disappeared from Finland overnight, this whole country would collapse. You immigrants are not holding this country together, we Finns are. It is OUR country. So OUR preferences and desires take precedence over you immigrants.

    So when in future you come up with your theories on how Finnish society should be, ask first how FINNS would want Finnish society to work. And then try to figure out how the desires of immigrants could be fulfilled without hurting the interests of Finns. Because this country stands and falls with Finns, not with immigrants.

    But you would never do that would you… From what I have learned about you Enrique, you never want to learn about other cultures. You speak of travelling between cultures and all that crap, but you never go through the trouble of LEARNING what cultures are like, UNDERSTANDING the inner workings of those cultures and why they are what they are.

    You just waltz around, trying to push your culture to everyone around you, never stopping to think if natives have different values which render your preferences moot and even insulting to eyes of natives. You are racist Enrique, supremacist who thinks he is so much better than everyone else that you think you have no need to learn why others do not see things from your point of view. You refuse to see what Finns see, because you think you are better than us and because you think we need to be taught how to live “properly”, namely how you think we should live.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 22, 2008 11:24 am

      –Your biggest issue Enrique, is that you are not a Finn. Every single one of your idealistic outbursts is based on what immigrants want or prefer. You NEVER give single thought to what FINNS want or prefer. You just expect Finns to eat up all the shit you would shovel our way.

      Again you get personal. How do you know what FINNS think? Who passed laws such as the Equality Act, Integration Act, dual citizenship law etc…?? Where they ghosts or Finns who thought like me and many others? Your view of a Finn is not only narrow but comical. You think that everything is resolved by “perkele” but that is not how a modern, healthy, well-functioning society works. Hence, a great amount of Finns, especially those that MAKE the decisions, are not willing to be spoon-fed a lot of your nationalistic phony bologna.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 22, 2008 11:28 am

      –But you would never do that would you… From what I have learned about you Enrique, you never want to learn about other cultures. You speak of travelling between cultures and all that crap, but you never go through the trouble of LEARNING what cultures are like, UNDERSTANDING the inner workings of those cultures and why they are what they are.

      It is pretty incredible that you speak as if you were the representative of Finnish culture. I speak as an individual that does not need to hide behind any nationality. As you have noticed, I do not give 1 + 1 = 2 answers to complex social questions. But, hey, you are so learned about the issued that you actually LEARNED and UNDERSTAND how cultures function. Many who read this blog think quite the opposite about your narrow-minded arguments.

  17. Tiwaz permalink
    December 22, 2008 12:23 pm

    -It is pretty incredible that you speak as if you were the representative of Finnish culture. I speak as an individual that does not need to hide behind any nationality. As you have noticed, I do not give 1 + 1 = 2 answers to complex social questions. But, hey, you are so learned about the issued that you actually LEARNED and UNDERSTAND how cultures function. Many who read this blog think quite the opposite about your narrow-minded arguments.

    Individual. You are so desprate to pretend you have no cultural background. Are you so shamed of failure called Argentina? You are not invididual without any background, and that background is culture you were brought up with. So stop trying to lie about not having cultural identity.

    -Again you get personal. How do you know what FINNS think? Who passed laws such as the Equality Act, Integration Act, dual citizenship law etc…?? Where they ghosts or Finns who thought like me and many others? Your view of a Finn is not only narrow but comical. You think that everything is resolved by “perkele” but that is not how a modern, healthy, well-functioning society works. Hence, a great amount of Finns, especially those that MAKE the decisions, are not willing to be spoon-fed a lot of your nationalistic phony bologna.

    By being FINN, and interacting with them. Being that guy who speaks with them in sauna, over lunch. As Finn to Finn. Unlike you foreigner.

    Those who make decisions are so badly distanced from reality it is not even funny. That is why you get idiots like KOK representatives fucking up with their promises. They think nobody bothers to pay attention to what they speak and do. And then when they are caught up with them breaking their word they are stymied.

    As more Finns come in contact with your wonderful “multiculturalism”, which has repeatedly failed to produce ANY well-functioning society as proven already, more they turn against it.

    Time is on my side Enrique. If you immigrants do not figure out that annoying and disrespecting natives is bad for your long term interests. You will suffer.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 22, 2008 7:16 pm

      –Those who make decisions are so badly distanced from reality it is not even funny. That is why you get idiots like KOK representatives fucking up with their promises. They think nobody bothers to pay attention to what they speak and do. And then when they are caught up with them breaking their word they are stymied.

      Yes, but in a democracy the party that gets the most votes wins. If KOK did such a poor job, they would not have done so well in the previous election.

      Time is not on your side. I think time has passed you and you are still somewhere in a time warp trying to figure out how rapidly the world turns

  18. intternetnetsi permalink
    December 23, 2008 1:41 am

    Most of people dont see problems because main media is hiding it, yes i know that since i have spoken many.
    Look malmö, nice multiculturalism in there.
    I add some texts what others with better output write.

    Monikulttuurin hyvät puolet riippuvat tietysti siitä, mitä monikulttuurilla tarkoitetaan. Jos sillä tarkoitetaan monikultturismi-aatteen moninaisia vaikutuksia politiikassa ja yhteiskunnassa, niin siitä ei ole juuri hyvää koitunut. Jopa ruokakulttuuri monipuolistuisi ilmankin, joidenkin ammattitaitoisten kokkien tullessa työn perässä (eikä monikulttuurin rikastuttamisen perässä) ja perustaessa ravintoloita, ja tietysti jo pelkästään kaupankäynnin ja tavanomaisen kulttuurinvaihdon välityksellä.

    Jotenkin monikultturisteilta tuntuu aina unohtuvan monta olennaista seikkaa.

    Ensinnäkin Suomen kulttuuri on aina ollut moninaista. Täällä on lappalaista, suomalaista, hämäläistä, savolaista, pohjalaista, karjalaista ja ruotsalaista, venäläistäkin, viime aikoina myös tataareita ja mustalaisia. On alakulttuureita ja yhteiskuntaluokkien hyvinkin erilaisia kulttuureita, kuten sivistyneistön “korkeakultturi” ja rahvaan kansankulttuuri. Suomalaiset eivät ole koskaan yksin, maailma on täynnä kulttuureita, ja mitä enemmän suomalaiset säilyttävät omaleimaiset piirteensä, sitä monimuotoisempi on maailman kulttuurien kirjo.

    Toiseksi Suomi on aina käynyt rikastuttavaa ja arvokasta kulttuurinvaihtoa muun maailman kanssa. Jo kivikaudella ajatukset ja teknologiat levisivät pitkienkin matkojen päähän. Keskiajalla kaukomaiden ihmeisiin alettiin päästä käsiksi kirjallisuuden avulla, ja pian astuivat myös kuvioon matkat kaukaisille maille. Kirjallisuus onkin rikastuttanut suomalaista kulttuuria suunnattomasti. Nykyisinkin ehdottomasti suurin osa miellyttäväksi koetusta kulttuurivaihdosta käydään muulla tavalla kuin ihmisjoukkojen asettumalla asumaan Suomeen. Ihmiset saavat kulttuurivaikutteita matkoilta, medioista, kirjallisuudesta, internetistä.

    Sen sijaan muslimimaahanmuuttajien ja suomalaisten väliset kulttuurierot kärjistyvät, kulttuuria aletaan torjua, kun ne väkisin asetetaan asemaan, jossa ne uhkaavat omaa kulttuuria. Tämä torjunta näkyy paljon selvemmin muslimimaahanmuuttajien keskuudessa, mutta sitä on myös suomalaisten keskuudessa.

    Uusien kulttuurien mukana tulee meille uusia taitoja ja ajattelutapoja. Ne voidaan omaksua jos ne ovat hyviä tai muuten kannatettavia. Jos ne taas ovat haitallisia ja vahingollisia niin niitä ei tarvitse täällä hyväksyä. Jos yhdentekeviä, niin niitä pitää suvaita. Se on aitoa rikkautta.

    Positiivinen monikulttuurisuus on vaikka sitä, että Kiinalainen perustaa ravintolan. Jos ruoka on hyvää ja edullista niin ihmiset käyvtä syömässä sitä, koska he pitävät siitä. Jos ruoka ei mene kaupaksi se on viesti siitä, että tälle kulttuuriselle taidolle ei ole tarvetta ja silloin ravintolanpitäjän tulee siirtyä muihin hommiin.

    “Aito” monikultuurisuus taas taitaa enemmänkin olla sitä, että etno perustaa ravintolan ja riippumatta siitä onko ruoka hyvää vai pahaa ihmisten on käytävä syömässä halusivat he tai eivät.

    Tämä on nykyisen monikulttuurisuuden ongelma. Meille tulee paljon tapoja/ajatuksia, jotka eivät sovi Pohjoismaiseen hyvinvointivaltioon vaan aiheuttavat ongemia niin tulijalle kuin meillekkin ja sitten niihin ei voida puuttua koska “se olisi rasismia”.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 23, 2008 9:50 am

      Thank you for an interesting post. I totally agree with you that Finland’s culture is diverse. In fact, it is more diverse than some would want to admit. One source of this diversity are the hundreds of thousands of immigrants that left for other lands. They have implanted Finnish culture in many of the countries they moved to. Of course their “Finnish culture” has changed through the generations but many still continue to have a bond with Finland.

      –Tämä on nykyisen monikulttuurisuuden ongelma. Meille tulee paljon tapoja/ajatuksia, jotka eivät sovi Pohjoismaiseen hyvinvointivaltioon vaan aiheuttavat ongemia niin tulijalle kuin meillekkin ja sitten niihin ei voida puuttua koska “se olisi rasismia”.

      This is an area where a lot of work has to be done. I do not agree that some cultures are incompatible because all people have the ability to change. This area Mulsim-Finnish and black-Finnish relations appear to be the most problematic. It is like a festering wound that must be cured. One factor that makes resolving this problem a challenge is the so-called “war on terror.” (What an absurd name. Aren’t all wars terror?). It is a bit like if a group of Europeans or people from the US would commit a suicide attack and destroy Mecca. The wound would be too great to heal rapidly.

      What do you suggest? Prohibit ALL Muslims from moving to Finland?

      If there were areas of racism/discrimination/exclusion, it would be with Mulsims and Somalis living in Finland. I am NOT claiming that all there problems are due to racism. However, some of its roots derive from it. Ethnic distance is a two-way street.

  19. December 23, 2008 6:20 am

    Seems like someone (Tiwaz) is having too aggressive approach to this. As for some of the statements:

    “When a Finn states that a member of this society must accept Finnish values and customs in order to be accepted, what is he/she actually saying? The message is clear – we do not accept your diversity.”

    Do I want people to accept Finnish values and customs, yea I do, in some degree. If there’s a clash between immigrants and natives value, it shoul always be the immigrant who’ll change the values (or customs) instead of natives. No matter what the country. Then again if the immigrant has better values or customs, it’d be nice if natives accept it freely, if not, then there should be no forcing them to. As for the example, Finns should learn to deal with alcohol better, and some more conservative immigrants should give up violence in the name of the family honor. Both are generalizations I know, but you get the picture.

    But all in all, there’s something wrong trying forcily to change local culture in favor of others, no matter what country. We have it kinda bad it Sami people, Northern and Southern America has it with Indians, Australia with Aboriginals and so on. What Europeans did in the past was wrong, immigration that kinda wiped out the civilizations already there. But now it’s going otherway around and I don’t like it. The richness of the cultures comes from the fact that there’s so many different ones scattered around the earth, no point trying to make too many different cultures to work in a small area.

    The “Immigrant should adapt to our customs and values” works both ways. I think that any Finn that moves to other country should adapt to local customs and values, and if not willing to do that, then move again to somewhere else, or atleast not complain about it.

    The difference with the Marting Luther King is kinda big. Yeah, he did speak out the problems with social issues and it really was good. But the starting situation was kinda different. The people who suffered, hadn’t gone there (or atleast their ancestors) out of their free will. They had been living there for generations and the problems went on and on. In Finland the problems is mostly with people who have come to Finland out of their free will and then complain about the situation in here. Would it be nice, if I went to some conservative muslim (or christian) place and demanded freedom to run around naked everywhere and such? As such, I think the immigration to Finland should be limited, atleast until someone comes up with real solution to problems it’s causing in other parts of Europe (UK, France, Sweden and so on). No point closing the borders of course. But the social welfare system and the unemployment amongs foreigners (whatever the reason for it) ain’t gonna be good. People don’t like it too much about other Finns are living off the welfare, and it’s getting worse when the people using it are increasing. So, until the employment situation is getting better, the attitudes are going to get even worse.

    And as for the reason for unemployment. Yes, partly it’s about racism (not always intentional), but partly because it’s hard to get rid of bad workers no matter what the nationality. Even the education doesn’t help too much. There’s many academic Finns too, that are either unemployed or working somewhere, where the education doesn’t help at all. At that situation, it ain’t a suprise that educated foreigners are unemployed too.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 23, 2008 10:22 am

      If we look at the hundreds of comments in this blog about Finns and foreigners, the answer and solutions appear to be bound by which group one belongs. Some Finns think that multiculturalism means a “loss to Finnish culture” or that foreigners should adapt to Finnish culture. Since I have lived in many countries, one of the matters that I have learned is that the more able you become as “a traveler within a culture” (learn the values, customs etc) the easier it is for you to get along. This does, however, not mean that as I learn about the other culture I lose my identity in the process. This applies to the Finns as well if they are dealing with a certain group. It does not mean, as some have claimed, “appeasement.” It means common sense.

      If you look at some of the estimates from the Ministry of Economy, Statistics Finland, etc, they claim there will be a very big rise in foreign labor. If this is the case, probably when we understand that exclusion/discrimination become negative attributes to our society and our economy starts to hurt hitting our wallets, maybe attitudes will start to change. But yes, you are right. In Finland as elsewhere immigrants and non-immigrants are competing for scant resources in the labor and welfare market.

      If Finland needs hundreds of thousands of foreign laborers in the upcoming years to fill jobs, what do you think Finland should do?

  20. jaakkeli permalink
    December 24, 2008 5:15 am

    If Finland needs hundreds of thousands of foreign laborers in the upcoming years to fill jobs, what do you think Finland should do?

    Dunno, maybe SACK THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT that’s busy importing even more refugees straight to unemployment and not making it any easier to import actual labourers? That’s *if* you believe that there’s some worker shortage, an idea that’s going to be a little tough to sell when we’re sinking into depression and mass unemployment.

    And will you PLEASE just shut the f*** up about “fitting stereotypes”. I have dark hair and I’ve never felt the slightest bit conflicted or oppressed about it when looking at the Elovena box or when people (foreigners or not) have been throwing blond stereotypes at Finns. Besides, the Elovena girl started out with red hair!

    • Enrique permalink
      December 24, 2008 7:25 am

      Sack the current government. How? Depression and mass unemployment? If you look at the latest forecasts, Finland’s economy is seen contracting by about 0.5% next year with unemployment rising to 7.5%. These economic figures are much better than other industrialized countries. This, however, can change.

      I mentioned the Elovena girl to show how some Finns saw themselves ethnically. That was my point. It was not about feeling oppressed because of a farm girl on a popular oatmeal brand. Should there be a red- and dark-person version of the Elovena girl?

  21. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    December 24, 2008 12:50 pm

    “If you look at the latest forecasts, Finland’s economy is seen contracting by about 0.5% next year with unemployment rising to 7.5%. These economic figures are much better than other industrialized countries.”

    I think those forecasts are just being too positive. The fact remains that the price of labor in Finland is too high. We have not many industries left that can compete, and the other industries wish to bring in foreigners as a labor pool that can be exploited. Just look at the farm workers in Italy and Spain. Undocumented workers living in squatter camps living on mere substinence. Is that the kind of “workers” we need as well? How about legalizing slavery while we’re at it. The big businesses never think of national intrests – they think of their shareholders interests.

    There won’t be any “need for workers” if the current process of industries escaping Finland continues. Soon there won’t be any jobs. Thats what the government should concentrate upon – creating jobs.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 24, 2008 1:35 pm

      Well, then you should talk to Standard & Poors, Nordea and other financial institutions about how “optimistic” their forecasts are. I think the real problem is that we do not know how 2009 will pan out. It depends on a number of factors. One of the most important of these is how our main trading partners (Germany, UK etc.) will do.
      Do you really think that there is a long line by foreigners to get into Finland? If I were a foreign laborer, I would search for an easier country to settle in. Moreover, the other problem are attitudes of some Finns; ie that foreigners are out to get something from Finland. Have you ever thought that they may offer something valuable and their efforts are needed? Comparing immigrants to farm workers in Spain and Italy is a very narrow way of looking at the matter.

      But I agree — how do we create jobs in order for Finland to be competitive in the future? Finding the answer is a win-win situation.

  22. DeTant Blomhat permalink
    December 25, 2008 2:04 pm

    “Do you really think that there is a long line by foreigners to get into Finland?”

    The amount of asylum seekers has risen again.

    “Have you ever thought that they may offer something valuable and their efforts are needed?”

    What have foreigners brought that is valuable? What is their efforts that we need?

  23. Tiwaz permalink
    December 31, 2008 8:36 am

    -“If we look at the hundreds of comments in this blog about Finns and foreigners, the answer and solutions appear to be bound by which group one belongs. Some Finns think that multiculturalism means a “loss to Finnish culture” or that foreigners should adapt to Finnish culture. Since I have lived in many countries, one of the matters that I have learned is that the more able you become as “a traveler within a culture” (learn the values, customs etc) the easier it is for you to get along. This does, however, not mean that as I learn about the other culture I lose my identity in the process. This applies to the Finns as well if they are dealing with a certain group. It does not mean, as some have claimed, “appeasement.” It means common sense.”

    How about you foreigners showing common sense and learning how Finnish culture works and acting according to it here? None of this bullshit of yours about us natives being somehow required to respect your cultural rules. If it is permitted in our culture, then it is permitted. Period. If it is denied in our culture, it is denied. Period.

    It does not matter what your culture says about those things. If it is denied, you may not do it. If it is not, you may freely deny yourself right to do whatever it is. But you may not deny anyone else.

    In short, keep your identity. We do not care. But respect in our country our culture and our rules.

    • Enrique permalink
      December 31, 2008 1:16 pm

      Tiwaz, I think you exaggerate a bit. I believe that many foreigners make an effort to integrate and learn “the habits of the Finns.” However, it isn´t that easy, especially in a country such as Finland where there is unemployment, an inflexible labor market and a period (1944-95) where foreigners were a rare sight. I believe that when a person moves to a country his efforts must be placed in finding a job, learning how the culture/country works and start “bringing home the bacon.” What happens if for some reason the person fails? Years go by and he finds no work. What happens to the person and his view of Finnish society? The answer is self-evident.
      Even though I do not agree with all that you say, I wish you much success and happiness in 2009.

  24. Tiwaz permalink
    January 2, 2009 1:27 pm

    And when they run into any trouble, they start whining and demanding.

    Aamulehti had interesting article some time ago, about some asian guy who had moved to Finland to study.

    Now he whines that he does not get citizenship if he does not learn Finnish. He really pushed to integrate and learn Finnish habits in little shy 10 years he spent here.

    That is to say, not at all. He was happy as clam to expect Finland to adjust to him, and when he wants citizenship to obtain all the rights included, he wants it to be made possible without speaking local language.

    Reality is, there is no use for “no habla”- immigrants. Because huge majority of low level jobs which do not require any education are ones where all your colleagues and immediate superiors are Finnish speakers. Fluent English is only found on higher education levels.

    And huge amount of work is in service business. What good is worker who cannot communicate with clients? Or do you think that employer will tell clients that they must use some language other than one they prefer? You can guess how much business such company would get.

    So, in short, to get your bacon… LEARN FINNISH! No, it is not easy. Yes, it takes long time. So? Do you think things should be made easy for you?

    We Finns have struggled to build this country, we have struggled through studying foreign languages to speak them. So absolute minimum of respect for you immigrants to show is to learn OUR language in OUR country. And it is not just respect, it is to make you employable.

    Demanding that you should be as employable without Finnish as you are with Finnish is extremely arrogant.

    What happens to persons view of Finnish society is his own fault. Idiot who moves to foreign country, and anyone who has not bothered to educate themselves on facts regarding Finland BEFORE moving is a grade A idiot, deserves no pity if they fail due to their own stupidity.

    If immigrant cannot get a job without speaking language, who says it should be Finland and Finns who give in? Why should we accept foreign languages and ways as equals in our country? Finnish language and ways are not considered equal elsewhere, so why should we do any differently in our home turf?

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